Mass Protests in Cuba

[Edu]

[LAKISYLVANIA]

Good morning. Cuba deserves to be free. Hopefully this will amount to something tangible in their quest for freedom, but I'm not really optimistic.

Trouble is, for too many "free" means a return to the Batista days.

This.

I give my full support to the Cuban government.

It's not like where communism was overthrown, life is better today (if you take in account forty years of progress in the world). Russia is the prime example of that. The only communist nation that did improve substantially was Eastern Germany as it was merged with West-Germany where democratic traditions were in place for a far longer time.

Democracy in Cuba will be possible when America and other imperalist powers cancel sanctions. I'm sure that with a different approach Cuban leaders will certainly add democratic reforms. But like this, you're just sowing the seeds for another "revenge dictatorship".

[CumbrianLefty]

You know, I think things will be rosy after all. Apparently the protesters are Trotskyists or hardish DemSocs if LeftVoice can be believed. That may point to Cuba coopting some of their demands and not going as hard on them as one would think given their recent record of treating protestors of all stripes.

Given the possibility that this protest could get coopted, either by the current leadership or through more unsavory characters forcing a regime change like what went out of hand in 1956 Hungary, a nuanced view must be taken. Critical recognition of the protesters demands for a better, more democratically ran system with reforms attempting to ensure rising living standards. However, the Cuban government has a responsibility to the Cuban people to protect it from any internal and external threat to the people, and thus anyone working to overthrow this government right now for a Dictatorship of the Bourgeoise must be stopped at all costs in the short term.

An addendum I would add is that no matter the course or aftermath of this, the CPC and alternative progressive forces apart and outside of it need to build a blueprint to multi-party democratic elections instead of electing independent politicians as the system operates now. Kadar’s Czechoslovakia accepted every demand of the 1956 People’s Party but that one, and it was a fatal mistake for the workers movement.

Heh (sorry to pick you up on typos today)

[THG]

https://www.dailywire.com/news/cuba-cracking-down-on-demonstrations-dissidents-say-police-arresting-

In light of the petty, partisan drivel normally posted on this particular board, I would like to share an instance of something we as Americans should unite over.

Godspeed to these fighters.

"John 8:36: So if the Son sets you free, you will be free indeed. + Galatians 5:1 It is for freedom that Christ has set us free. Stand firm, then, and do not let yourselves be burdened again by a yoke of slavery"
 

[Crumpets]

I like that the way you get around the partisan drivel on this board is to post something that probably doesn't belong on this board.

But yes, this should be about as non-partisan as you can get. And maybe this can be a thread to track reactions in the US as the protests continue.

[THG]

I like that the way you get around the partisan drivel on this board is to post something that probably doesn't belong on this board.

My bad.

That being said, even if this topic isn't wholly appropriate for this board, I do fail to see how this is a downgrade from what usually passes as discourse on this particular board.

EDIT: We are not on US General anymore, I see!

[Filuwaúrdjan]

Why don't you respond directly instead of passive aggressively commenting after me in reference to my comment?

Anyway, it's pretty obvious what the goal is here, and it's not wealth for the masses of Cuba. "Everyone is poor and starving equally" jokes are a kiddie-tier criticism of leftist government.

I don't think there was anything particularly passive about my post. And while that classic critique is certainly very simple is it actually wrong? No, it is obviously and objectively correct. The people are poor, and during the present economic crisis are also in a loose sense 'starving' as well, and are so because the country's economic system does not work.* The government is also extremely repressive and denies people even the most basic of political and social rights. I do not think we should expect to be particularly surprised that a government that cannot feed its people but is inordinately fond of locking them up for making unapproved jokes might actually be rather unpopular. That the United States has generally been a very bad neighbour and has often interfered in a way that makes a difficult situation worse does not alter any of that or make any of it remotely excusable.

_{*'Socialist' autarky on a foundation of tourism and exports from cash-crop plantations? There are a few fairly obvious problems there...}

[OSR stands with Israel]

Good morning. Cuba deserves to be free. Hopefully this will amount to something tangible in their quest for freedom, but I'm not really optimistic.

Trouble is, for too many "free" means a return to the Batista days.

This.

I give my full support to the Cuban government.

It's not like where communism was overthrown, life is better today (if you take in account forty years of progress in the world). Russia is the prime example of that. The only communist nation that did improve substantially was Eastern Germany as it was merged with West-Germany where democratic traditions were in place for a far longer time.

Russia is clearly better off today than it was under Communism

[LAKISYLVANIA]

Good morning. Cuba deserves to be free. Hopefully this will amount to something tangible in their quest for freedom, but I'm not really optimistic.

Trouble is, for too many "free" means a return to the Batista days.

This.

I give my full support to the Cuban government.

It's not like where communism was overthrown, life is better today (if you take in account forty years of progress in the world). Russia is the prime example of that. The only communist nation that did improve substantially was Eastern Germany as it was merged with West-Germany where democratic traditions were in place for a far longer time.

Russia is clearly better off today than it was under Communism

Compare Russia relative to the world of 1980 with Russia relative to the world of 2021. I think the answer is going to be different.

I also admit life could have been better, but i'm also talking about the latest communist days, not the early revolutionary Russia (especially the Stalin years), as I think Stalin is the most evil man to have lived on this world.

Like i would have been a defender of the revolution, and even I would have been purged by him, because I would have had the guts to openly criticize Stalin. More openly, i think everyone who dares to call himself a communist, could not be considered a communist if he wouldn't try to kill Stalin back in the days. I would have done everything to eliminate him, even to the expense of my own life.

That's why I think Krushchnev is perhaps one of the best world leaders we've ever seen, because he was able to destalinize the USSR and through that possibly prevent much worse, including an actual nuclear war and more domestic casualties. I'll always admire him for that.

[Statilius the Epicurean]

[PSOL]

I have my doubts a revolution would be best at this time for Cuba. Also, I would say people here defending Cuba were supportive of the reforms made in the past few decades, and want them to accelerate into a healthy democracy.

[Okay, maybe Mike Johnson is a competent parliamentarian.]

Also, I would say people here defending Cuba were supportive of the reforms made in the past few decades, and want them to accelerate into a healthy democracy.

I wouldn't say I've been "defending Cuba", but, as one of the relatively more anti-anti-Castro people who's been posting in this thread (but also as someone with actual Cuban exiles in my extended family), I can confirm that I definitely don't want the country to just stay the way it is.

[Estrella]

It's not like where communism was overthrown, life is better today (if you take in account forty years of progress in the world). Russia is the prime example of that. The only communist nation that did improve substantially was Eastern Germany as it was merged with West-Germany where democratic traditions were in place for a far longer time.

As someone from a formerly communist country that isn't East Germany, I'm really curious what you hit your head on.

It happened to different degrees and there were some very limited exceptions, but in general, communists in Eastern Europe brutally crushed any semblance of civil society or independent political organizations and pursued a staunchly reactionary social policy against nearly all minorities and discriminated groups, to an extent that not even "Western" far-right would dare. Now, Eastern Europe has problems with poverty, corruption, authoritarianism, sexism, homophobia, racism, nationalism run amok, complete lack of political standards, conspiracy theorism that dwarfs that in the "West" and so on and so on. In some countries the situation is getting better, but it really started only a few years ago, when children born after the fall of communism grew up and became active members of society.

Gee whiz, I wonder what caused all that.

[Bismarck]

Well this thread has made the odiousness of certain left wing posters pretty clear.

[mileslunn]

Good morning. Cuba deserves to be free. Hopefully this will amount to something tangible in their quest for freedom, but I'm not really optimistic.

Trouble is, for too many "free" means a return to the Batista days.

This.

I give my full support to the Cuban government.

It's not like where communism was overthrown, life is better today (if you take in account forty years of progress in the world). Russia is the prime example of that. The only communist nation that did improve substantially was Eastern Germany as it was merged with West-Germany where democratic traditions were in place for a far longer time.

Democracy in Cuba will be possible when America and other imperalist powers cancel sanctions. I'm sure that with a different approach Cuban leaders will certainly add democratic reforms. But like this, you're just sowing the seeds for another "revenge dictatorship".

I would disagree.  I would say Baltics, Czech Republic are better off.  Even Eastern Europe with all its issues is still better off in that they do have elections and somewhat more freedoms.  Economy is stronger and more importantly as members of EU, gives them both access on trading front but also working to the largest economic bloc.  Russia hasn't worked out great, but hard to argue things were better under USSR.  Maybe not improvement many had hoped for but certainly not as bad as former USSR.  I have travelled to many ex-communist countries and none of them appeared as bad as Cuba.  Only one that was more impoverished was Cambodia, but its was even worse under Communism. 

Now true perhaps staying communist with economic reforms maybe.  After all China and Vietnam have seen robust growth and they have moved towards more market based economy.  But they are still dictatorships and for groups that get in crosshairs of state it is not good.  See Uyghur detention camps.  You have human rights violations in other ex-Communist countries but nothing on this scale.

[Never Made it to Graceland]

Well this thread has made the odiousness of certain left wing posters pretty clear.

Your comment quality has decreased as of late.

[pbrower2a]

Uhh, I somehow doubt the same CIA that went all Wile E. Coyote against Fidel is competent enough to instigate a made-for-TV protest movement. Are they creaming themselves at Langley? Sure. But Cubans (not in Miami) are entitled to criticize their rulers without the intellectually lazy excuse of "hurr durr CIA big bux".

This is not how the CIA does things. It was surprised by the 1989 revolutions in central and Balkan Europe. The usual CIA technique involves overthrowing a "pink" regime that the President deems going "red".

[compucomp]

I'm surprised to see so much support from red avatars here for the Cuban "protestors", after how Cubans turned into some of the staunchest and loudest Trumpists, arguably swung Florida into his column, and promulgated Trump's Big Lie afterwards; supposed moderate Carlos Gimenez even voted to reject PA and AZ electors on 1/6 after the coup. Haven't you learned by now that the enemy of your enemy is not necessarily your friend? Why are you surprised that right-wing Cuban reactionaries did not magically turn into supporters of "freedom" when they came to the US and turned into, surprise surprise, right-wing American reactionaries?

[Okay, maybe Mike Johnson is a competent parliamentarian.]

This thread is a good opportunity to share one of my favorite family stories, courtesy of my late Uncle Manuel, a Hemingwayesque man's man who had a classic Cuban-émigré life story but somehow ended up a center-left Resistance lib after marrying my Bryn Mawr professor aunt. It's a story that I think says a lot about the highs and lows of life in Cuba.

One of Manuel's relatives, at some point a decade or two after Castro came to power, wanted to start some sort of local cooperative. Instead of getting permission through the official channels, he tried to pull some strings with a relatively obscure Castro brother, Ramón Castro, who lived nearby and whom he had met before.

The meeting went well at first, with lots of drinks and smokes and free-flowing conversation. The person plying Ramón Castro thought he was doing a pretty good job making his case, until he made the mistake of saying "You know, you look just like your brother."

"I am the older brother," Ramón shouted, suddenly enraged. "Fidel looks like me!"

True story, or so my uncle always claimed.

[Ⓐnarchy in the ☭☭☭P!]

Mixed reports from Camagüey. The only actual video I can find shows police giving way to protesters, but some claim the defections are more widespread.

https://twitter.com/Del22Libertad/status/1415087825410744321

More info on the Miami boaters, it's been confirmed that the Coast Guard has stopped ships loaded with weapons and supplies headed for Cuba.

https://twitter.com/Global_Mil_Info/status/1415087148202668042

https://twitter.com/angela4LNCChair/status/1415102693853384710

Also probably the most detailed article I've been able to find overall, unfortunately it's in Spanish so here's my best translation:

Without an organization to coordinate them, and mainly self-convened through social networks, dozens of Floridians are getting on private boats to cross the Straits of Florida and reach the limit of international waters twelve miles from Cuba.

“There is too much pressure. Police are sent by the communists to confront people who are asking for freedom. It is a country where people have no hope of any kind. The people are having a peaceful protest and they are responding with repression. We can't take it anymore, it's time to go and fight with our people. I hope the United States understands that I am going to defend the town where I was born, ” Alejandro Morúa, a Havanan who has lived in Miami for 13 years, told Infobae who today gets on one of the boats that are leaving the Pelican marina in Miami heading to his birth island.

On the ship they carry medicine and food to deliver to Cuba, if they can get close to shore. Something that, they say, they will only do if the United States government gives them the green light.

“We are hurt because we thought we were going to have more support from the president of this country. But we are still going to bring fireworks so that they can be seen from the boardwalk ”, added Morúa.

Time isn't on their side. The weather conditions are unstable and the rains are heavy, but that does not make them afraid.

"If the captain is experienced, we can face any storm," said Lázaro Jerry Alboniga, who will be in charge of one of the boats. So far it is estimated that some 30 private boats have left for the border between international waters and Cuban waters.

“Nobody asks for money. We only ask for freedom, and we are here to support our brothers” , declared Joe Giménez, who is waiting for some friends to arrive with a boat from Tampa to get on with them and continue south.

The United States Coast Guard expressed its support for those who are exercising their fundamental right to freedom of assembly and expression on the island, but discouraged individuals from going out to sea, at least without authorization.

Coast Guard Rear Admiral Eric Jones, stressed that "the crossing is dangerous and unforgiving" and that in recent weeks at least 20 people have died trying to cross the Straits of Florida, mostly the so-called Cuban rafters.

[Velasco]

I think there's no incompatibility in supporting the right of peaceful demonstration in Cuba, while opposing the economic strangling of the country implemented by Trump and advocated by reactionaries in Miami. Repression of protests is always a bad idea, either in Cuba or in Colombia. Freedom is not only a matter of holding fair elections, a key element of democratic regimes. Consider the excercise of freedom and the individual fulfilment advocated by liberalism are not possible in contexts of gross inequality, which is the usual on Latin America. I'm not justifying the Cuban regime in saying this

[afleitch]

I think those on the left are of course supportive of the protests. The concern is if regime change is taken away from the protesters via US intervention. Which is hauntingly inevitable after a certain point.

[John Dule]

"The literacy rate is good" is the "They made the trains run on time" of the left.

[Velasco]

"The literacy rate is good" is the "They made the trains run on time" of the left.

It will be always preferable literacy to illiteracy. On the other hand, people endorsing racist and authoritarian regimes elsewhere is not entitled to give moral lessons

[(no subject)]

Fidel Castro and Lenin were both mentally unhinged and nuttier than squirrel sh**t, e.g. his comment of GD Ella the nun and humanitarian. He only gets a free pass because people still want to believer.