Mass Protests in Cuba

[Never Made it to Graceland]

Good morning. Cuba deserves to be free. Hopefully this will amount to something tangible in their quest for freedom, but I'm not really optimistic.

Trouble is, for too many "free" means a return to the Batista days.

...Freedom for the rich to grow richer, freedom for the poor to be pauperised and to starve, return of undivided power to the landowners and capitalists, dissolution of the alliance of the peasants and the workers.

[Filuwaúrdjan]

Much better these days when everyone is poor and starving equally, apart from senior Party officials of course. After a certain point 'you don't want Mr Jones to run the farm again, do you?' loses any value as a serious argument.

[Never Made it to Graceland]

Much better these days when everyone is poor and starving equally, apart from senior Party officials of course. After a certain point 'you don't want Mr Jones to run the farm again, do you?' loses any value as a serious argument.

Why don't you respond directly instead of passive aggressively commenting after me in reference to my comment?

Anyway, it's pretty obvious what the goal is here, and it's not wealth for the masses of Cuba. "Everyone is poor and starving equally" jokes are a kiddie-tier criticism of leftist government.

[mileslunn]

I hope this succeeds.  Transition to capitalism and democracy won't be easy but it needs to be done.  In 1959, Cuba had similar per capita GDP to Spain.  Today its less than a fifth.  Sure they have universal education and health care, but no reason you couldn't keep that under a democracy and a capitalist one like Nordic Countries do.  US embargo is just used as an excuse to justify the regime's failings.  Sadly too many younger people in the West think socialism is solution.  Hopefully this will be a wake up call that socialism doesn't work and this will for once and for all throw off the shackles of socialism.

And for being a US colony, Canada and Mexico are capitalist countries yet independent and in fact governments too cozy with US in either tend to not do so well at polls, so that is just more fearmongering.  Plenty of Caribbean countries who are not socialists let not US colony. 

[Comrade Funk]

Once again Biden is in the right. The far-left and right-wing have been embarrassing regarding this issue today.

[Okay, maybe Mike Johnson is a competent parliamentarian.]

Anyway, it's pretty obvious what the goal is here, and it's not wealth for the masses of Cuba. 

This is an operative point. Anybody who thinks a post-communist Cuba would nicely transition to a Nordic-style social democracy has a very rosy view of the history of US involvement in the Caribbean. The best-case scenario (which would, admittedly, probably be at least a little better than the status quo) is a tourism-and-remittance-driven economy that keeps some but not all of the Castro-era health care system intact.

[John Dule]

But their literacy rate is so high! How could such an educated populace not understand the benefits of my specific brand of extremely online Marxism? And after all Castro did for them, no less!

[mileslunn]

Anyway, it's pretty obvious what the goal is here, and it's not wealth for the masses of Cuba. 

This is an operative point. Anybody who thinks a post-communist Cuba would nicely transition to a Nordic-style social democracy has a very rosy view of the history of US involvement in the Caribbean. The best-case scenario (which would, admittedly, probably be at least a little better than the status quo) is a tourism-and-remittance-driven economy that keeps some but not all of the Castro-era health care system intact.

Canada has very similar health care to Cuba and US hasn't tried to intervene there so no reason could not.  In fact Canada, Cuba, and North Korea are the only three countries on earth that ban private sector competition on basic health care.  Though I suspect Cuba moves to mixed system like Europe and its a competition between Canada and North Korea who is last to end government monopoly on basic care. 

[afleitch]

The US will treat Cuba like a clearance sale if it has the chance to. Everything must go; especially if it's deemed too 'socialist.'

Cuba will either be under America's heel as it is now under a continued Castro regime, or at it's teat like it was under Batista.

[mileslunn]

The US will treat Cuba like a clearance sale if it has the chance to. Everything must go; especially if it's deemed too 'socialist.'

Cuba will either be under America's heel as it is now under a continued Castro regime, or at it's teat like it was under Batista.

Why would they when they don't with Canada which has over its history had some pretty socialistic elements.  While not much state ownership today, we did in 70s have a lot more including a state owned oil company (Petro-Canada, which is now privatized), government run health care which unlike most European countries actually bans private competition for basic care (or at least tries to).  Canada historically had very restrictive foreign ownership laws and even had a foreign investment review board that frequently blocked foreign investments up until early 80s.  Yet US never intervened.  They may have not liked our more left wing approach, but we were able to do so.  Thus I think as long as no more socialistic than Canada has been at its left wing peak they should be fine.  And right now, millennials are very left wing in Canada so good chance you see us zoom quite a bit left in next 20 years.  If US intervenes in Cuba but not Canada would look hypocritical. 

Off course US isn't always consistent in foreign policy thus maybe won't let Cuba do some things that allow in Canada, but at least I think as people are more aware, American public won't react too kindly to a double standard.

[PSOL]

You know, I think things will be rosy after all. Apparently the protesters are Trotskyists or hardish DemSocs if LeftVoice can be believed. That may point to Cuba coopting some of their demands and not going as hard on them as one would think given their recent record of treating protestors of all stripes.

Given the possibility that this protest could get coopted, either by the current leadership or through more unsavory characters forcing a regime change like what went out of hand in 1956 Hungary, a nuanced view must be taken. Critical recognition of the protesters demands for a better, more democratically ran system with reforms attempting to ensure rising living standards. However, the Cuban government has a responsibility to the Cuban people to protect it from any internal and external threat to the people, and thus anyone working to overthrow this government right now for a Dictatorship of the Bourgeoise must be stopped at all costs in the short term.

[Okay, maybe Mike Johnson is a competent parliamentarian.]

The US will treat Cuba like a clearance sale if it has the chance to. Everything must go; especially if it's deemed too 'socialist.'

Cuba will either be under America's heel as it is now under a continued Castro regime, or at it's teat like it was under Batista.

Why would they when they don't with Canada which has over its history had some pretty socialistic elements.  While not much state ownership today, we did in 70s have a lot more including a state owned oil company (Petro-Canada, which is now privatized), government run health care which unlike most European countries actually bans private competition for basic care (or at least tries to).  Canada historically had very restrictive foreign ownership laws and even had a foreign investment review board that frequently blocked foreign investments up until early 80s.  Yet US never intervened.  They may have not liked our more left wing approach, but we were able to do so.  Thus I think as long as no more socialistic than Canada has been at its left wing peak they should be fine.  And right now, millennials are very left wing in Canada so good chance you see us zoom quite a bit left in next 20 years.  If US intervenes in Cuba but not Canada would look hypocritical. 

Off course US isn't always consistent in foreign policy thus maybe won't let Cuba do some things that allow in Canada, but at least I think as people are more aware, American public won't react too kindly to a double standard.

oh my God are you serious

I don't think even the most anti-Castro posters in this thread would dare hope that the US would treat a post-communist Cuba as well as it treats Canada. Dear Lord.

[PSOL]

You know, I think things will be rosy after all. Apparently the protesters are Trotskyists or hardish DemSocs if LeftVoice can be believed. That may point to Cuba coopting some of their demands and not going as hard on them as one would think given their recent record of treating protestors of all stripes.

Given the possibility that this protest could get coopted, either by the current leadership or through more unsavory characters forcing a regime change like what went out of hand in 1956 Hungary, a nuanced view must be taken. Critical recognition of the protesters demands for a better, more democratically ran system with reforms attempting to ensure rising living standards. However, the Cuban government has a responsibility to the Cuban people to protect it from any internal and external threat to the people, and thus anyone working to overthrow this government right now for a Dictatorship of the Bourgeoise must be stopped at all costs in the short term.

An addendum I would add is that no matter the course or aftermath of this, the CPC and alternative progressive forces apart and outside of it need to build a blueprint to multi-party democratic elections instead of electing independent politicians as the system operates now. Kadar’s Czechoslovakia accepted every demand of the 1956 People’s Party but that one, and it was a fatal mistake for the workers movement.

[Suburbia]

US should not get involved

[ChiefFireWaterMike]

As always, Viva Cuba Libre!

VIVA CUBA LIBRE!
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=pP9Bto5lOEQ

[Former President tack50]

Tbh every time people say "Viva Cuba Libre" I always think of the famous cocktail of coke + rum lol

[KaiserDave]

Down with the Communist regime. Long live the Cuban people.

That's all I have the effort to type at the moment, Home Run Derby is on.

[Ⓐnarchy in the ☭☭☭P!]

A fleet of Cuban-American boats (edit: and helicopters) left Miami for Cuba. They say they're loaded with food and water and that they're going to wait outside the international boundaries but...who knows. I genuinely have no clue how proficient the Cuban Coast Guard is nor how much effort the US would put into stopping angry Cuban exiles from trying to get to Cuba.

https://twitter.com/yoeljgz/status/1414743067698081794

https://twitter.com/Datoworld/status/1414762867233103872

https://twitter.com/LibertarioMex_V/status/1414766925008232454

Protests seem to still be going strong outside Havana but the internet cutting makes it hard to tell. Shoutout to the Cuban libertarians of the Mises-Mambi Institute, several of their members have been disappeared or sent to concentration camps but they're still fighting.

https://twitter.com/norges14/status/1414705895829815304

https://twitter.com/YomarMr/status/1414664590839984131

EDIT: Police are apparently preventing people from visiting relatives in the hospital who were shot or injured during the protests. Multiple reports that protesters seized a police station in Havana, set it ablaze and took the police chief hostage while the police responded with live fire. Protests have continued more or less unabated elsewhere. Looks like shutting down the internet and sending in paramilitaries hasn't worked, at least so far.

https://twitter.com/norges14/status/1414591236355284996

https://twitter.com/agusantonetti/status/1414786676329750532

https://twitter.com/MarioJPenton/status/1414778356936200192

EDIT EDIT: Apparently the protesters executed the police chief and in turn the police gunned down several protesters. Situation is rapidly deteriorating. For the sake of everyone involved I hope things are resolved quickly; the worst scenario would be a complete degeneration into a Venezuela-like situation. For better or for worse this is nothing like Belarus.

https://twitter.com/NOTICIAS_chelme/status/1414797533176532992

EDIT EDIT EDIT: More footage, police shooting protesters in Havana

[2952-0-0]

(I'm applying my knowledge of another communist regime here, so forgive me if my two cents are wrong)

The Cuban regime will definitely claim these boats were a provocation sent on the orders of the CIA. The coast guard most definitely have standing orders to tear gas boats coming from the north, and I'm sure that Castro has ensured that only the most politically loyal people can serve in the coast guard. If somehow the boats get through to Cuba, that will be the Berlin Wall moment for the regime.

Any confrontation in the Florida Straits will be livestreamed. Heaven forbid a boat goes down or someone gets killed.

[PSOL]

Yeah, this is a color revolution.

[2952-0-0]

Uhh, I somehow doubt the same CIA that went all Wile E. Coyote against Fidel is competent enough to instigate a made-for-TV protest movement. Are they creaming themselves at Langley? Sure. But Cubans (not in Miami) are entitled to criticize their rulers without the intellectually lazy excuse of "hurr durr CIA big bux".

[Never Made it to Graceland]

[Ⓐnarchy in the ☭☭☭P!]

More details on the aforementioned executed police chief and torched police station: supposedly the specific station was the Capri Station in Güinera, Havana. It wasn't taken over by mere protesters but by police deserters who armed themselves and other protesters (!!!) before burning the station. There have been widespread blackouts but whether they're intentional or just the result of shortages or chaos is unclear. It apparently hasn't worked in the favour of the police though, as there are reports of roaming bands protesters/rebels (?) with machetes taking advantage of the darkness.

https://twitter.com/FIFOCastro/status/1414795024047423488

It's worth noting that Güinera is, from what I can tell, very poor (even by Latin American standards it's comparable to D or E class areas) and not the sort of middle class neighbourhood you'd expect "CIA propaganda" to catch on. I also found people from the area complaining about the government months ago.

The embargo definitely hasn't helped, but the biggest problem faced by Cuba is that they're totally reliant on imports for basic necessities paid for in US Dollars and every major source of Dollars dried up when COVID hit. Specifically the top sources are remittances, which have been greatly reduced thanks to lockdowns in the US, and tourism, which has almost entirely dried up. Strict lockdown measures wiped out many remaining income sources and also served to direct public anger at the "revolutionaries" instead of the US.

I feel pretty confident in saying that this wasn't planned by the CIA and isn't a Colour Revolution (yet), but the lack of clear leadership or organization means it could be easily co-opted. The fact that the English language media has been consistently behind the curve suggests they didn't have talking points prepared. It's kind of like the early stages of the Arab Spring, where the internet enabled the sudden unexpected removal of both pro-American and anti-American dictators in Tunisia and Egypt. Of course the CIA eventually co-opted the Arab Spring for its own ends in Libya and Syria the idea that they wanted to get rid of Mubarak is far less plausible; people overestimate the power of the CIA and underestimate the power of unpopular dictators being exposed as such.  Though the Miami Cubans speeding off in speedboats, yachts and helicopters reminds me more of Donbass than anything.

EDIT: Another update on the boats. Apparently there are a huge number of ship lights off the coast of Havana but people aren't sure whether it's the Cuban Coast Guard or the "Miami Navy". Confirmation either way would be greatly appreciated. Also found a video that claims to show the "fleet" viewed from an overhead drone shot; it's entirely possible they spliced in some unrelated boating event but if it's accurate then there were at least a hundred boats and ships of varying sizes. They also claim the boats are armed.

https://twitter.com/RosyCruz09/status/1414400397393997831


https://twitter.com/PleyariIndigo/status/1414775919487635459

[Geoffrey Howe]

The US will treat Cuba like a clearance sale if it has the chance to. Everything must go; especially if it's deemed too 'socialist.'

Cuba will either be under America's heel as it is now under a continued Castro regime, or at it's teat like it was under Batista.

Why would they when they don't with Canada which has over its history had some pretty socialistic elements.  While not much state ownership today, we did in 70s have a lot more including a state owned oil company (Petro-Canada, which is now privatized), government run health care which unlike most European countries actually bans private competition for basic care (or at least tries to).  Canada historically had very restrictive foreign ownership laws and even had a foreign investment review board that frequently blocked foreign investments up until early 80s.  Yet US never intervened.  They may have not liked our more left wing approach, but we were able to do so.  Thus I think as long as no more socialistic than Canada has been at its left wing peak they should be fine.  And right now, millennials are very left wing in Canada so good chance you see us zoom quite a bit left in next 20 years.  If US intervenes in Cuba but not Canada would look hypocritical. 

Off course US isn't always consistent in foreign policy thus maybe won't let Cuba do some things that allow in Canada, but at least I think as people are more aware, American public won't react too kindly to a double standard.

We had exchange controls until 1979.

[Skye]

I absolutely love it when people in that kind of position protest against a tyrannic regime that has been in power for decades and first-world leftists have the absolute audacity of implying or outright stating that we don't deserve freedom because the hypothetical alternative would not comply with their ideological beliefs.

Cuba deserves to be free. If you see people protesting against a repressive dictatorship that has been in power for 60 years and your only impulse is to post about "muh sanctions" or "but imperialism/bautista/capitalism" do a serious introspection, because you don't actually give a damn about the population, you're just an ideologue.