Nazi prison guard living in Tennessee gets deported

[H. Ross Peron]

I wanted to qualify that there were some Waffen-SS conscripts, especially ethnic Germans from Eastern Europe towards the end of the war by which time Germany's strategic situation made the always nebulous ideal of the SS as some kind of a racially and ideologically "elite" formation untenable. For that reason, only a handful of Waffen-SS divisions were truly better equipped and trained than the average Wehrmacht division, fanboy fantasies aside. All that said, this is not really applicable here since the man in question wasn't in some frontline combat formation raised to face the Red Army in the last desperate days of the war but was found to have voluntarily accepted assignment as a camp guard. It's really strange to see an Atlas blue avatar Catholic whinging his hands and talking like some caricature of a moral relativist theological ultraliberal about how only God can judge even the worst of criminals.

[Santander]

He's not even going to prison, lol. He's being deported to a safe, developed country with a welfare state from which he receives a pension.

[FEMA Camp Administrator]

He's not even going to prison, lol. He's being deported to a safe, developed country with a welfare state from which he receives a pension.

Noooooo! Don't send me to [checks notes] 21st century Germany!

[2952-0-0]

He's not even going to prison, lol. He's being deported to a safe, developed country with a welfare state from which he receives a pension.

Isn’t he a citizen? Or am I missing something?

Citizenship could be revoked if it later transpired it was obtained fraudulently. Many people have had their US citizenship revoked and deported after their Nazi past was exposed.

One of them was even deported to the Soviet Union, where he was executed.

[FEMA Camp Administrator]

He's not even going to prison, lol. He's being deported to a safe, developed country with a welfare state from which he receives a pension.

Isn’t he a citizen? Or am I missing something?

Citizenship could be revoked if it later transpired it was obtained fraudulently. Many people have had their US citizenship revoked and deported after their Nazi past was exposed.

One of them was even deported to the Soviet Union, where he was executed.

How do you obtain citizenship fraudulently? Cant anyone become a citizen if they go through the process?

"Well if you lie on your application..."

[Bleach Blonde Bad Built Butch Bodies for Biden]

He's not even going to prison, lol. He's being deported to a safe, developed country with a welfare state from which he receives a pension.

Will he actually get those things under German law, though? Or are former SS guards excluded from welfare?

[KaiserDave]

This man did not work at an extermination camp, so he had no option to end the extermination of Jews. He was 18 years old, and likely extremely impoverished, and would do anything for money. His brain was also not fully developed. This is in no way to absolve him from his actions, rather, they are things that must be taken into account when deciding what to do going forward.

How do you think the SS worked? The SS was an all volunteer organization, with members chosen specifically for their racial pedigree and ideological purity. Anybody who got into the SS was a diehard Nazi, it wasn't a way for the poor and young to have something to do or get paid. He committed crimes against humanity, and crimes have punishments.

[John Dule]

I believe that prison should only be for those who have proven themselves as being a threat to society. A secular government should only involve itself in secular practices such as keeping the public safe, not legislating morality. Therefore, the question of whether to put this man in prison should not be whether or not he has done something wrong (obviously he has), the question should be if he is a threat to others. I think the answer is no. I find it very hard to believe that this is man still believes in Nazism, and at 95, he has almost no physical capability to harm other either.

Herein lies the massive error in your reasoning, an error which-- if you had listened to me three pages ago-- you would have realized by now. Prison does not exist solely to remove undesirable criminals from society; it also exists as a warning to potential offenders that they can expect to be prosecuted and jailed for their crimes.

A thought experiment: Let's say a man kills his wealthy aunt because he knows he will profit from it. This is a crime that was committed in a very specific circumstance, and the man is unlikely to offend again. He shows remorse, he says it was a momentary lapse of judgement, and he promises to never do anything of the sort in the future. Should he be put in prison? Obviously yes. If you do not punish this person, then that will effectively give a license to kill to every other person with a wealthy relative. By choosing not to punish this man for his deed, you are signaling to other potential offenders that the government will turn a blind eye to them if they commit a similar crime. And similarly, if you choose not to punish an active participant in a genocide, you are signaling to other genocidal maniacs in the world that the United States is a safe haven for them once they've committed their crimes. A more reprehensible legal injustice is almost impossible to imagine.

It is shocking to me that I'm still having to explain this to you.

[KaiserDave]

I believe that prison should only be for those who have proven themselves as being a threat to society. A secular government should only involve itself in secular practices such as keeping the public safe, not legislating morality. Therefore, the question of whether to put this man in prison should not be whether or not he has done something wrong (obviously he has), the question should be if he is a threat to others. I think the answer is no. I find it very hard to believe that this is man still believes in Nazism, and at 95, he has almost no physical capability to harm other either.

Herein lies the massive error in your reasoning, an error which-- if you had listened to me three pages ago-- you would have realized by now. Prison does not exist solely to remove undesirable criminals from society; it also exists as a warning to potential offenders that they can expect to be prosecuted and jailed for their crimes.

A thought experiment: Let's say a man kills his wealthy aunt because he knows he will profit from it. This is a crime that was committed in a very specific circumstance, and the man is unlikely to offend again. He shows remorse, he says it was a momentary lapse of judgement, and he promises to never do anything of the sort in the future. Should he be put in prison? Obviously yes. If you do not punish this person, then that will effectively give a license to kill to every other person with a wealthy relative. By choosing not to punish this man for his deed, you are signaling to other potential offenders that the government will turn a blind eye to them if they commit a similar crime. And similarly, if you choose not to punish an active participant in a genocide, you are signaling to other genocidal maniacs in the world that the United States is a safe haven for them once they've committed their crimes. A more reprehensible legal injustice is almost impossible to imagine.

It is shocking to me that I'm still having to explain this to you.

The difference is that if a man killed his aunt for money, he has shown he values profit over human life. So yes, he should be put in prison, until he’s proven he's changed (which would be very difficult to do).

As for your second point about sending a warning:

This is a much stronger argument. My position would be that, given the circumstances, their isn’t evidence this person is a “genocidal maniac.” The camp he worked at wasn’t one of extermination, it was closer to a very, very cruel prison. It was wrong then, but he was a mere teenager.

Now it’s Holocaust denial time!
I just hope this is genuine ignorance and not knowingly spreading propaganda

[Santander]

Of course the Holocaust happened. But in the case of this specific man, he didn’t work at an extermination camp, he worked at one of forced labor.

That just means he was accessory to thousands, instead of hundreds of thousands, of murders.

[KaiserDave]

I’m not denying that people at this camp were killed, but it would be a lot less obvious to a guard compared to an actual extermination camp.

You're spewing utter nonsense and shifting your argument to justify keeping your stance instead of re-evaluating it. You were just arguing that this camp was not a death camp. Now that I have provided proof it was, you are claiming this man must not have known. Not because that makes any sense, but because you need to justify standing at his side.

Because it was not primarily a “death camp.” A “death camp” refers to camps that’s main purpose was to kill people. That’s not what this camp was.

We are not presenting a complicated idea.

Extermination camps were responsible for the murder of hundreds of thousands or millions. Labor and concentration camps were responsible for thousands or tens of thousands of death. It is still mass murder and genocide, just at different scales.

This is not hard to understand.

You either are woefully ignorant (and should stop arguing this point and do research, please it's important) or are maliciously spreading Neo-Nazi propaganda.

[Pro-Israel, anti-Bibi]

This thread kinda reminds me of the sign language thread. People of all political persuasions coming together to dunk on OP. I can sorta see where thereckoning is coming from, but at the same time, people shouldn't evade justice for horrific crimes just because enough time has passed. I don't buy the Good German argument, he was a willing participant and has been living it up here for decades.

[John Dule]

This is a much stronger argument. My position would be that, given the circumstances, their isn’t evidence this person is a “genocidal maniac.” The camp he worked at wasn’t one of extermination, it was closer to a very, very cruel prison. It was wrong then, but he was a mere teenager.

My argument does not require that he is a genocidal maniac, only that he aided and abetted a genocide, which is objectively true. The only relevant question here is: What kind of message would we like to send to other accomplices in crimes against humanity? Do we want to demonstrate to them that the United States will not give them safe harbor if they ever set foot here? Or would you rather signal to them that if they can sufficiently remove themselves from their crimes by both distance and time, they're free to live out their lives here as comfortably as possible? I do not think there can be any argument for the latter.

[KaiserDave]

I am very hopeful that the TheReckoning is a victim of our inadequate Holocaust education in schools and media, but it's also possible he knows what he's doing. Very bad in either case, though the later means considerably worse for his character.

[Bleach Blonde Bad Built Butch Bodies for Biden]

please stop well ackshuallying the Holocaust

[jimrtex]

Should an American soldier who guarded a Japanese internment camp be charged with a crime? Couldn't he have requested a transfer?

[KaiserDave]

Should an American soldier who guarded a Japanese internment camp be charged with a crime? Couldn't he have requested a transfer?

These aren't remotely the same, and to say they were is literal 1945 Nazi propaganda.

[jimrtex]

Should an American soldier who guarded a Japanese internment camp be charged with a crime? Couldn't he have requested a transfer?

These aren't remotely the same, and to say they were is literal 1945 Nazi propaganda.

What was this basis for internment in both cases?

Why am I being sent to this place? You are a J....

[ꙮ]

Should an American soldier who guarded a Japanese internment camp be charged with a crime? Couldn't he have requested a transfer?

These aren't remotely the same, and to say they were is literal 1945 Nazi propaganda.

What was this basis for internment in both cases?

Why am I being sent to this place? You are a J....

American internment of the Japanese was wrong and you will find no disagreement on that. However, Japanese internment was not used as a means to kill the Japanese or use them as slave labor. The Holocaust resulted in the murder of millions. One is so much worse than the other as to make any direct comparison ridiculous.

And I've gotta say, if someone told me yesterday that another blue av would join the cause in this thread, I would've guessed you.

[jimrtex]

Should an American soldier who guarded a Japanese internment camp be charged with a crime? Couldn't he have requested a transfer?

These aren't remotely the same, and to say they were is literal 1945 Nazi propaganda.

What was this basis for internment in both cases?

Why am I being sent to this place? You are a J....

American internment of the Japanese was wrong and you will find no disagreement on that. However, Japanese internment was not used as a means to kill the Japanese or use them as slave labor. The Holocaust resulted in the murder of millions. One is so much worse than the other as to make any direct comparison ridiculous.

And I've gotta say, if someone told me yesterday that another blue av would join the cause in this thread, I would've guessed you.

How does this excuse the action of the prison guards? They were young. They had likely been taught that these J... were not really Americans/Germans. They likely would have been shot if they deserted.

[Kingpoleon]

The difference is that if a man killed his aunt for money, he has shown he values profit over human life. So yes, he should be put in prison, until he’s proven he's changed (which would be very difficult to do).

As for your second point about sending a warning:

This is a much stronger argument. My position would be that, given the circumstances, their isn’t evidence this person is a “genocidal maniac.” The camp he worked at wasn’t one of extermination, it was closer to a very, very cruel prison. It was wrong then, but he was a mere teenager.

What’s next? Are you going to defend the guards at Abu Ghraib who just watched as their fellow soldiers tortured, beat, and raped prisoners if they just 19 or 20 years old? People aren’t stupid, man. Let’s PRETEND he didn’t know people were killed there - he knew they were beaten, raped, and tortured. He knew that HUMAN BEINGS were being treated worse than dogs and stood by and did nothing. That shows a ghoulish soullessness, and I can’t imagine how you pretend to defend him because he was “just a teen.”

[ꙮ]

Should an American soldier who guarded a Japanese internment camp be charged with a crime? Couldn't he have requested a transfer?

These aren't remotely the same, and to say they were is literal 1945 Nazi propaganda.

What was this basis for internment in both cases?

Why am I being sent to this place? You are a J....

American internment of the Japanese was wrong and you will find no disagreement on that. However, Japanese internment was not used as a means to kill the Japanese or use them as slave labor. The Holocaust resulted in the murder of millions. One is so much worse than the other as to make any direct comparison ridiculous.

And I've gotta say, if someone told me yesterday that another blue av would join the cause in this thread, I would've guessed you.

How does this excuse the action of the prison guards? They were young. They had likely been taught that these J... were not really Americans/Germans. They likely would have been shot if they deserted.

A single American was shot for desertion in WWII, on the front lines in France. To say that someone objecting to serving at a Japanese internment camp would "likely have been shot" is ridiculous. You really have to force the comparison here; the situations are very different.

[Santander]

Besides, this is not a defense of his actions. This is me saying he doesn’t pose a threat to humanity today, and thus doesn’t belong in prison. If he deserves punishment, he will recieve that when he dies and faces his creator.

Letting every war criminal on the planet know that the United States is a safe haven as long as they're senior citizens is a threat to humanity.

[ꙮ]

What did you expect him to do? Overthrow the Nazi regime himself? That would get him killed.

For the one hundred millionth time: He could have not joined. The SS was a volunteer organization. He did not have to overthrow the regime, he would not have been shot. The end.

This thread is a disgrace.

[Frodo]

If he never expressed (genuine) remorse over his crimes after he fled Europe, I have no qualms about having criminals like him deported no matter how old they are.  It is important to send a message that you can't hide from your past and evade justice by using your advanced age as a crutch.  If he dies en route before he gets to Germany, fine by me.  Hell awaits him either way.