NATO

[dead0man]

expansion

[dead0man]

expansion

Into where/what?

Everywhere.

Long Answer-I'd like something between NATO and the UN.  A new organization doing that would be fine, but I'd honestly prefer we rename and refocus NATO.  It's focused too much on Russia, and that focus keeps Russia feeling just that much more cornered.  I'm not saying Russia isn't a threat or that without NATO they'd be that much less of a douche on the world stage, just that the extra focus from NATO reminds them that we are not friends, natural or of convenience.

Short Answer-Japan,S.Korea,Australia,NZ,Israel,Philippines,any country in Central or South America that wants in, any other country that is a liberal democracy and wants to play too

European members should start to contribute more to the alliance financially and militarily. It can't rely solely on the U.S. indefinitely.

I also agree with this, this needs to be a team effort.

[dead0man]

Should be entirely disbanded.

why?

[dead0man]

Even on the terms proscribed by the architects of American imperialism, the usefulness of NATO ceased to exist after 1991. NATO's supposed original purpose, to deter the West from a Warsaw Pact invasion, had been fulfilled. Since then, NATO has become nothing more than the military arm of American regime change in the far-flung corners of the world, and in Europe it has served only to resuscitate the very issue it claimed victory over: Russian aggression.

wait wait wait...are you really suggesting Russia wouldn't have invaded Georgia and Ukraine if NATO was NOT around?  You know that's goofy right?  I'm guessing you'd be ok with Russia in control of the Baltics again too.  Well I wouldn't be, the people it Latvia wouldn't be and I know Kal ain't ok with that either.  The Soviet Union was not properly defeated.  They reorganized, turned a few ideological nobs a little and then returned to being what they were before, with a slightly lighter load by letting the PRC take the lead in giving buckets of money and weapons to corrupt douchenozzles in the third world.  It's better in a lot of ways for them, their corrupt leaders can more freely flaunt their wealth in front of the plebs now.  It was rather embarrassing when they did that in 1979.

[dead0man]

Russia had mostly cordial relations with Ukraine prior to about 2008.  Relations have only significantly deteriorated since then,

that will happen when Russia gets caught rigging your elections, right?  That should significantly deteriorate relations I would think.  Do you disagree?  'cause that would be a weird argument to have.

when American officials proposed bringing the Ukraine into the fold of the NATO member states,

too bad we didn't.  Ukraine would still be whole if we had.  Same with Georgia.  Which is why I favor expansion.

which of course Russia adamantly opposes.

of course they do, the bully always hates getting resistance

Do you not think that NATO expansion has done a great deal to exacerbate tensions with Russia?

it's not helped, but that doesn't mean Russia would have been content had it been shut down.  There is zero evidence of that.

Do you not think that Putin is more apt to describe himself as feeling cornered and isolated as a result of American policy towards the Russians?

probably, but again, I don't care if bullies feel cornered and isolated.  In fact, I think they should be cornered, isolated and then put down like dogs if they don't play ball.

[dead0man]

There is absolutely no evidence for that. Thousands of international observers monitored the 2010 election and found no evidence of rigging or electoral fraud, and the OSCE called the election transparent and honest. At any rate, the deterioration of relations occurred before Yanukovych was elected.

indeed, which is why I was referring to 2004

You're willing to risk an all-out war with Russia just so you can augment your holy military alliance? That's pretty foolish.

Russia is going to start a war it can't possibly win because they got surrounded by liberal democracies?  That's a million times more foolish.

Also, Georgia is still "whole". Sure, the ethnic Georgians were expelled from South Ossetia, and Russian military bases were established there, but neither South Ossetia nor Abkhazia were formally annexed by Russia in the same way that the Crimea was.

did that spinning make you dizzy?  "Just because we've taken over part of your country, ethnically cleansed it, administrate it, won't let you come here, we haven't actually announced it publicly yet, so that makes it totally yours!"  That's crazy man.

Like I said, relations had been more or less cordial before the contentious issue of NATO expansion, which, as I've pointed out elsewhere, goes against an assurance made by the United States that NATO would not move eastward.

non-expansion of NATO was talked about, it was never part of any deal.  They lost, they were not in a very good position to make deals, they should be thankful we let them keep as much control as we did.  If the shoes were switched I wouldn't imagine their leaders would have been as understanding.

I hear rhetoric like this all the time coming from hawks like yourself in the media and the political sphere, and they're usually the same people who have the audacity to turn around and criticise Russia for deteriorating relations with the West. If you're advocating for Russia being "cornered, isolated, and then put down like dogs", don't be surprised when the Russians push back.

all they have to do is stop being douche bags, it's not hard.

[dead0man]

Yeah, the only reason the Baltics like us more than Russia is that we've poured large sums of money at them and have a "large military presence" (it's got nothing at all to do with how Russians treated them for the last 300+ years) and what the west has done (give money, "propoganda") in Ukraine is totally comparable to what the Russians have done (invaded, murdered, shot passenger planes out of the sky, give money, "propoganda", Holodomor). 


I mean, good job here, you're arguing from an impossible position and you're doing it with vigor and gusto.  You're not making any sense or moving anybody to your position, but you're doing it with so much energy!

[dead0man]

yeah guys, it's just a coincidence that Putin invaded countries that didn't get NATO membership.