BREAKING: Catalonia Declares Independence

[Simfan34]

Has Felipe aged like 20 years since his coronation?

It's the beard.

The King's speech will be poorly received in Catalonia, but it seems most of the Spanish political class, including PSOE, has lined up against the Catalans if not Rajoy. And there is a degree of popular enthusiasm: when the Guardia Civil was deploying to Catalonia they were sent off by cheering crowds across the rest of Spain. There seems to be a considerable resentment of the Catalans in the rest of the country that is conducive to a crackdowns.

A speech calling for restraint could've been seen as a criticism of the government and sparked a constitutional crisis, as if there wasn't enough of one already. The only real alternative would've been to say nothing at all.

The fact remains that turnout in the referendum was just 40% and, Sunday's events aside, no clear evidence of a majority for independence. A UDI would be a strategy fraught with risk: there could be a consolidation of independentist sentiment, or a backlash against the separatists' "recklessness".

[Daniel909012]

Has Felipe aged like 20 years since his coronation?

It's the beard.

The King's speech will be poorly received in Catalonia, but it seems most of the Spanish political class, including PSOE, has lined up against the Catalans if not Rajoy. And there is a degree of popular enthusiasm: when the Guardia Civil was deploying to Catalonia they were sent off by cheering crowds across the rest of Spain. There seems to be a considerable resentment of the Catalans in the rest of the country that is conducive to a crackdowns.

A speech calling for restraint could've been seen as a criticism of the government and sparked a constitutional crisis, as if there wasn't enough of one already. The only real alternative would've been to say nothing at all.

The fact remains that turnout in the referendum was just 40% and, Sunday's events aside, no clear evidence of a majority for independence. A UDI would be a strategy fraught with risk: there could be a consolidation of independentist sentiment, or a backlash against the separatists' "recklessness".

https://www.google.com.mx/amp/s/amp.elmundo.es/espana/2017/09/11/59b56da8e5fdea6e518b461f.html

[SoLongAtlas]

Catalonia will declare independence within days https://www.nbcnews.com/news/world/catalonia-declare-independence-within-days-after-spanish-king-s-tv-n807346

Second Spanish Civil War inbound

[Helsinkian]

So, which flag would independent Catalonia use?

[Statilius the Epicurean]

The second, Estelada flag.

[SoLongAtlas]

I like the second one. It looks almost like a superhero cape when people wear it with the star facing up.

[MyRescueKittehRocks]

Probably best to just dissolve the regional government.  It's treason.

Nope. The Catalonians tried to secede peacefully and what did they get? Illegally assulted by the Madrid government.  It’s sad that Trump is on the wrong side. Catalonia was oppressed by Franco disproportionately. They are a distinct people group with their own culture and thus should be granted independence.

[Mike88]

Portuguese Parliament approves vote of "worry about the Catalonia crisis", but rejects motion against the police violence and repression.



The Portuguese parliament approved today a motion, proposed by the PS, about the ongoing situation in Catalonia. The vote expresses the worry Portugal has about the tensions between Madrid and Barcelona. This passed with the votes of PS, PSD, CDS and the abstention of CDU, BE and PAN. At the same time, another motion, proposed by BE and PAN, against the police violence/repression was rejected with the votes of PSD, CDS and the abstention of the PS. Nonetheless, 2 MPs from the PSD and 9 PS MPs voted in favour of this motion.

[Beezer]

Probably best to just dissolve the regional government.  It's treason.

Nope. The Catalonians tried to secede peacefully and what did they get? Illegally assulted by the Madrid government.  It’s sad that Trump is on the wrong side. Catalonia was oppressed by Franco disproportionately. They are a distinct people group with their own culture and thus should be granted independence.

Who are "the Catalonians"? The separatists in parliament that illegally passed a bill that requires a two thirds majority with a simple one?

[Middle-aged Europe]

Spain vs. Catalonia is one of the very few instances where you can use "BOTH SIDES DO IT" very unironically.

[Obama-Biden Democrat]

Imagine if Canada has sent in the tanks during the Quebec 1995 referendum?

[Former President tack50]

Imagine if Canada has sent in the tanks during the Quebec 1995 referendum?

Well, was that referendum agreed with the federal government or unilateral? And most importantly of all, was it legal according to Canadian law?

[seb_pard]

This crisis is a concrete example on the crisis of Social Democracy, honestly Sanchez (or any member of the PSOE) are invisible, don't have clear propositions to resolve the conflict and no one seems to care. The only news I saw about the PSOE is about a inner fight about the censure of Santa Maria (the vice president).

[Zinneke]

This crisis is a concrete example on the crisis of Social Democracy, honestly Sanchez (or any member of the PSOE) are invisible, don't have clear propositions to resolve the conflict and no one seems to care. The only news I saw about the PSOE is about a inner fight about the censure of Santa Maria (the vice president).

They have maybe been invisible in the media circus but they are de facto preventing  Article 155 from being triggered by Rajoy and Rivera even though its Being discussed, ans the PSC are the ones who brought the case to suspend thé parliamentary session in Catalonia next monday that was supposed to thé official UDI.

Sorry for spelling. Its on french auto correct.

[publicunofficial]

Probably best to just dissolve the regional government.  It's treason.

Nope. The Catalonians tried to secede peacefully and what did they get? Illegally assulted by the Madrid government.  It’s sad that Trump is on the wrong side. Catalonia was oppressed by Franco disproportionately. They are a distinct people group with their own culture and thus should be granted independence.

It feels super gross to read a JCL post and have no disagreements with it.

[Obama-Biden Democrat]

Imagine if Canada has sent in the tanks during the Quebec 1995 referendum?

Well, was that referendum agreed with the federal government or unilateral? And most importantly of all, was it legal according to Canadian law?

It was a unilateral decision. Succession was not mentioned in the constitution, and the Supreme Court had not yet ruled on the issue. It was a legal grey area. The government of Canada made a big mistake by campaigning against succession and for staying in Canada, as it gave it the referendum a lot of legitimacy. You can't say the referendum is illegal and baseless if you spend months campaigning for Quebec to stay in Canada. It would have been smart to ignore the referendum, and if it passed the government could say sorry, Canada is indivisible.

[Tintrlvr]

Out of curiosity, is there any interest whatsoever in French Catalonia in joining Spanish Catalonia in independence? I assume the answer is no but have not really seen anything on it one way or another. I think Catalan is less spoken in Perpignan etc. than in Spanish Catalonia in any case, so it's more like Valencia than like Spanish Catalonia.

[windjammer]

Out of curiosity, is there any interest whatsoever in French Catalonia in joining Spanish Catalonia in independence? I assume the answer is no but have not really seen anything on it one way or another. I think Catalan is less spoken in Perpignan etc. than in Spanish Catalonia in any case, so it's more like Valencia than like Spanish Catalonia.

There is absolutely 0 interest.

[MAINEiac4434]

So, which flag would independent Catalonia use?

Third flag, the flag of the socialists, is the best. The blue looks out of place, and the Senyera looks too plain.

[swl]

Today the other side (anti independence) was demonstrating, there were hundreds of thousands of people, even though it was less crowded than the recent pro-independence marches (in my opinion).

People screaming "Viva España" and "Puigdemont en prison". Many demonstrators are coming from other parts on Spain. It was quite peaceful and the atmosphere was festive (it looked like Spain has won a football match). There are definitely some small far rights groups though and they are quite agressive, especially against the Mossos. We'll see how it ends.

[Helsinkian]

You must be logged in to read this quote.

https://www.theguardian.com/world/2017/oct/09/catalonia-independence-declaration-would-not-be-recognised-says-france

Which European countries would recognize Catalonia's independence? I guess Kosovo might recognize it. And who knows, perhaps Russia would recognize it too, just because Putin wants to create divisions within Western Europe?

Outside of Europe, I suppose the Catalan government could get the recognition from some developing countries in return for aid of some sort... If they can afford it, with their credit rating going down the tubes.

[vanguard96]

Probably best to just dissolve the regional government.  It's treason.

Nope. The Catalonians tried to secede peacefully and what did they get? Illegally assulted by the Madrid government.  It’s sad that Trump is on the wrong side. Catalonia was oppressed by Franco disproportionately. They are a distinct people group with their own culture and thus should be granted independence.

There was an interesting interview on the Mises Weekend with Jeff Deist with a classical liberal Spaniard who said that he disagreed with the secession movement because they were anti-liberty leftists. He mentioned voter fraud - saying some people had voted 5 times. I have not seen any official corroboration of these claims so I am inclined to believe that the voting was carried out legitimately.

Deist stood his ground in support of Catalonian self-determination in the face of overwhelming Yes votes. Deist maintained contrary to his guest the view that it would be anti-liberty to insist that all smaller regional governments should necessarily follow a classical liberal model like what the Spanish guest was insinuating - a very naive view in my opinion.

How do you feel as a Cruz-supporting libertarian about secession movements if they are overwhelmingly left-of-center? Does it bother you any or are you OK with it if they are a distinct people?

[swl]

Puigdemont was due to declare independence in front of the Parliament but his speech is postponed for some time because of last minute international mediation (rumors)

[MASHED POTATOES. VOTE!]

There should be a proper, biding referendum to resolve it once and for all. Unfortunately, this one was already damaged by the Spanish use of force.

[Dereich]

Puigdemont made his speech. He "accepted the mandate of the Catalan people to develop an independent state"...but postponed an actual declaration of independence to give time for talks. Talks I'm sure Rajoy will be THRILLED to participate in, just like the last 20 times they wanted to talk about independence.