Poll: Hispanics becoming less Catholic

[I spent the winter writing songs about getting better]

This shows how little value so many place on the "OMG CULTURE AND TRADITION!" stuff which is quite pleasing to me, even if many of the conversions in question are to something even worse. At least it's freeing yourself of the oppression of ethnoreligious identity.

[I spent the winter writing songs about getting better]

This shows how little value so many place on the "OMG CULTURE AND TRADITION!" stuff which is quite pleasing to me, even if many of the conversions in question are to something even worse. At least it's freeing yourself of the oppression of ethnoreligious identity.

Aren't you an evangelical?

Yeah, but I'm not under the illusion the majority of evangelicals are like me, or progressive.

[I spent the winter writing songs about getting better]

Shame, especially given the sorts of evangelical sects that Latinos are converting to.

Do you think its a shame with the people i know who converted Catholic to evangelical? (Albeit a more liberal strain of evagelicalism.)

[I spent the winter writing songs about getting better]

I see BRTD's following his usual script.

I will say, as I believe I have before, that the lack of a sense of ethnoreligious identity can for certain personality types feel as oppressive as the idea of having one feels to him. For such personalities, 'OMG CULTURE AND TRADITION!' is part of what separates the experience of a human from that of an entirely atomized and hence utterly alone 'consumer' or 'taxpayer' going through a process of constant cultural consumption and regurgitation on and on mechanically.

Can't one develop such an identity on their own? I think most would agree I'm hardly following those roles despite a lack of value for tradition. Actually in a way that's kind of the entire idea behind counter-culture.

Obviously people for whom that's the case wouldn't (for the most part) be the people converting but I can't help but wonder how this is affecting their relationships in their communities.

Probably not a whole lot. I don't know anyone in my age group who appears to have greatly soured relationships with their parents due to not being Catholic anymore. This type of sectarianism isn't a big factor anymore, which I think almost everyone would agree is good.

Shame, especially given the sorts of evangelical sects that Latinos are converting to.

Do you think its a shame with the people i know who converted Catholic to evangelical? (Albeit a more liberal strain of evagelicalism.)

I would say that Catholic-to-Evangelical is almost always a step down, theologically speaking, even if not necessarily socially or politically, except possibly from the most inconsiderately reactionary strain of Catholicism to the most staid and worldly-disinclined strain of Evangelicalism.

Happy Michaelmas, by the way.

There are certain things in Catholicism (primarily complimentarianism) that I find so repugnant that I would say switching to anything that doesn't involve those things is automatically a step up. I find it amazing that anyone would argue any women who convert to a church that ordains women are taking a step DOWN.

My point though was that he probably wouldn't care too much because white Minnesotans from a middle class background switching from Catholicism isn't likely to offend too many people because that's not necessarily "their role" which creates the quite offensive double standard that certain people have a right to choose whatever they want while other people from a different background don't. It's like a caste system almost. No one cares if the white person raised in some generic Protestant church or even Catholic becomes an evangelical or some newer sect or nothing and identifies that way and throws all cultural ties to religion aside but no it's not OK for Hispanic Catholics to do that. It's almost like the caste system in a way.

BTW the poll also shows mainline Protestantism rising from 9% to 12%. While that doesn't sound like a lot, consider that's a 33% increase, and then consider the decline amongst non-Hispanic whites in that category, and it's quite significant. And I don't think anyone other than conservative Catholic traditionalists would argue THAT'S a bad thing.

[I spent the winter writing songs about getting better]

I see BRTD's following his usual script.

I will say, as I believe I have before, that the lack of a sense of ethnoreligious identity can for certain personality types feel as oppressive as the idea of having one feels to him. For such personalities, 'OMG CULTURE AND TRADITION!' is part of what separates the experience of a human from that of an entirely atomized and hence utterly alone 'consumer' or 'taxpayer' going through a process of constant cultural consumption and regurgitation on and on mechanically.

Can't one develop such an identity on their own?

One conceivably can, but I'm far from convinced that many people do.

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What you call 'the counterculture' is really a disjointed, vague, and unreliable world, in that while I don't want to cast any aspersions on you specifically, the whole scene is a lot more beholden to the atomizing forces of capitalist modernity and the frank illusion of choice that it claims to oppose than most of us--even those of us who aren't in it but would like to believe that it can be what it promises to people--would prefer to think.

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Probably not a whole lot. I don't know anyone in my age group who appears to have greatly soured relationships with their parents due to not being Catholic anymore. This type of sectarianism isn't a big factor anymore, which I think almost everyone would agree is good.

I'm willing to concede this, but I would also like to remind you that 'people you know in your age group' isn't really representative.

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Do you think its a shame with the people i know who converted Catholic to evangelical? (Albeit a more liberal strain of evagelicalism.)
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I would say that Catholic-to-Evangelical is almost always a step down, theologically speaking, even if not necessarily socially or politically, except possibly from the most inconsiderately reactionary strain of Catholicism to the most staid and worldly-disinclined strain of Evangelicalism.

Happy Michaelmas, by the way.
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There are certain things in Catholicism (primarily complimentarianism) that I find so repugnant that I would say switching to anything that doesn't involve those things is automatically a step up. I find it amazing that anyone would argue any women who convert to a church that ordains women are taking a step DOWN.[/quote]

Complementarianism is awful, yes, and I would be willing to set aside a lot of reservations about culture to support any woman--or man, for that matter--who was uncomfortable with it converting away from Catholicism in principle, but preferably not to something that diminishes Mary, tears apart tradition at the seams as opposed to just letting it out a little, and sh**ts all over the sacraments. (I'm also not sure how much a church without apostolic succession ordaining anybody is really worth, but of course I would think that and of course I don't expect you to agree with me.)

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This is actually a pretty good point.

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That would depend on the mainline church in question and what its attitude towards cultural diversity in religious expression was (some have very good attitudes, some are iffier), but no, my knee-jerk tendency obviously isn't to consider that a bad thing, which I fully admit is partially due to personal bias in favor of high-church mainline Protestantism above other religions.

_____

This isn't a phenomenon that I'm 'opposed to' as such, anyway, really, but I think your reasons for being outright supportive of it are the wrong reasons.
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Couple points:

1-Anyone who converts is not likely to be big on the parts of Catholic theology you like anyway, I doubt you're seeing too many people go from Marian devotions to evangelicalism, or anyone who was big on the sacraments. In fact that stuff is rather deemphasized in modern day American Catholicism which is quite milquetoast, at least amongst the non-Hispanic white middle class, which I'll admit is probably part of the reason for its decline amongst that group, it's not differentiating itself. And many of the converts are probably people who actively are not big on that stuff and were already evangelical theological leaning anyway. Hispanics are known for charismatic worship after all (though yes you can find this in some Hispanic Catholic congregations too.)

2-Anyone born in the 80s or later, grew up in a world where a Catholic President was elected long before their lifetime, Catholicism was no longer an issue for anyone running for public office, and there was no association with being Catholic labeling them as some sort of "other" group. Therefore it's not too hard to see why they wouldn't see Catholic identity as some indelible part of themselves or "unique" label. Thus to modern generation people Catholicism is really nothing more than its archaic rules on sexuality and requirements in ordination and anti-gay campaigns, and if they can't accept that or agree with it, they're out. This is of course the main reason why Catholic identity has absolutely cratered amongst youngs from white middle class families but no doubt applies to a lot of Hispanics too, after all there are more going mainline or "none" than evangelical.

3-(more to Snowstalker and others than Nathan) The mindset that "Oh yes the Catholic church has some really backward ideas on gays and women but most people in it don't follow those anyway so who cares, they should just stay Catholic" is illogical. It's absurd to expect the church to continue to hold these positions diametrically opposed to the people and for them to not bolt or do anything. It's a lot like the Democratic Party in the South, I'd hate to compare the people I agree with to the segregationists, but after Truman started the push for civil rights there was some residual hanging on but it collapsed relatively fast. And there was no reason to not expect that. Cultural momentum only goes so far. Add in the reason listed above and you have a pretty lethal combination for the church in the coming decades, and a bit more insight into why people don't really value the cultural aspects too highly anymore. The question is why anyone claiming to be progressive believes this to be a bad thing.