Cincinatti Zoo officials shoot and kill gorilla after child falls into enclosure

[Antonio the Sixth]

Yes, human life always takes precedence over animal life in any circumstance (literally normal).

[Antonio the Sixth]

Yes, human life always takes precedence over animal life in any circumstance (literally normal).

Agree to disagree.

I seriously hope you're trolling.

[Antonio the Sixth]

Well I can say in all honesty that is one of the creepiest things I have ever read on this forum. And that's saying a lot.

[Antonio the Sixth]

Wtf?  I know you're a sensitive snowflake these days, but your flabbergasted tone here is arguably more strange than anything I've said here.

What?

I'm pretty sure most people would be equally shocked to hear someone argue that they'd rather see a human child die rather than a gorilla. At least I want to hope so.

[Antonio the Sixth]

I don't recall saying I'd rather see a child die.

So you'd rather see the gorilla die? Because there was a choice to be made. That's the point.

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I don't "obsess" over it for the simple reason that I thought, until today, that nobody except a few creeps and mass-murderers would so frontally question the superior moral value of human life. Apparently I was wrong, unless you're in one of those two categories.

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I haven't been religious since I was 12 or 13. And what the hell is that "still" doing here?

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Well, sorry to disappoint you, but again I'm pretty sure that the sanctity of human life is a principle that transcends differences in metaphysical beliefs.

[Antonio the Sixth]

Honestly, I don't overly care about this particular incident.  (I'm more concerned with why he was in a zoo, tbh.)  But it bred an interesting wider discussion.

That's understandable. I didn't care much either when I initially posted, but that was mainly because I thought this was something everybody would agree on.

Again though, regardless of how much you care, I'd still like an answer: If faced with that choice and no alternative option, which of the two beings's death would you rather be responsible for? A human child or a gorilla?

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It's just an "unless". Maybe my assumptions about human morality are wrong, who knows? Certainly, I'd feel very relieved if I knew for sure you were a deviant.

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...really?

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I'm a humanist who believes that humans are valuable in and of themselves and form the basis for all morality. As far as I know it's a pretty common position among nonbelievers.

And "spiritual issues" can be very fascinating from an agnostic perspective.

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That's not a position I'm willing to "agree to disagree" about.

[Antonio the Sixth]

Again though, regardless of how much you care, I'd still like an answer: If faced with that choice and no alternative option, which of the two beings's death would you rather be responsible for? A human child or a gorilla?

Neither, I suppose.  By the time I've finished being forced into your world of placing value in one sentient creature over another, events would probably have already taken over without me.

You realize that sometimes these choices have to be made in real life, right? It's pretty hilarious that you're pretending to be the wise, detached one in this discussion, all the while childishly refusing to choose in a very simple binary scenario.

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I know what this phrase means. Your position is not morally acceptable and as such I can't accept to just leave it there.

[Antonio the Sixth]

Sigh.  I guess I'll just have to wait until one of these hypotheticals comes true, then I can cross that bridge when I get to it.  Satisfied?  (Probably not.)

Duh. People are rarely "satisfied" when you dance around instead of answering a very simple question.

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I can't force you to abide by anything. I can, however, call you out for having an utterly f**ked up worldview.

[Antonio the Sixth]

To parts of Joe's point, I don't think "would you kill a human or gorilla?" is the right question. The dominating questions should be "how did a kid get in there?", "why do we cage gorillas in the first place?", "are there better options in the future?", etc. Pontificating about human greatness doesn't help much from stopping this.

OK, but provided that there was a zoo, that one of its cages had a gorilla in it, that a kid got there somehow, and that he would have died if the gorilla hadn't been killed, isn't this an important moral question to resolve? These things do happen and will sometimes happen. If we can't agree as a society on which of those two lives we value most, that's a serious problem.

[Antonio the Sixth]

I'm just an asshole and a pessimist and I own up to that,

Ugh, please don't. One Cathcon is enough.

[Antonio the Sixth]

If we can't agree as a society on which of those two lives we value most, that's a serious problem.

https://youtu.be/Wi9y5-Vo61w?t=45

Your obsession with the comparative value of entire species is a serious problem.

Quoting Ronald Reagan is not a good way to make me respect your "views" more.

And what's a "serious problem" is that apparently we still have creeps like you who only view humanity as a "species" whose population to control rather that as a community of actual people with basic rights and dignity.

[Antonio the Sixth]

Jesus. Almost 40% here would've said the very very real risk of the kid dying wasn't worth it.

It's probably for the best that many here don't/won't have kids of their own, but c'mon now.

Misanthropy is kewl, don'tcha know?

[Antonio the Sixth]

Jesus. Almost 40% here would've said the very very real risk of the kid dying wasn't worth it.

It's probably for the best that many here don't/won't have kids of their own, but c'mon now.

One kid is mathematically less important than a gorilla. Not sure why it's complicated.

You're trying way too hard.

[Antonio the Sixth]

Jesus. Almost 40% here would've said the very very real risk of the kid dying wasn't worth it.

It's probably for the best that many here don't/won't have kids of their own, but c'mon now.

One kid is mathematically less important than a gorilla. Not sure why it's complicated.

You're trying way too hard.

I voted yes in this poll, but no is a far more justifiable stance than yours in the other thread is...

Antonio enjoys his pulpit. The message is of less importance.

Really? That's the impression you get from my posts?

[Antonio the Sixth]

As much as 'speciesism' is frankly annoying,

I thought you identified as a humanist.

[Antonio the Sixth]

As much as 'speciesism' is frankly annoying,

I thought you identified as a humanist.

I am. I don't see why I should lack concern for the wellbeing of animals given that animal husbandry is one of the hallmarks of what makes us human.

Lack of concern for the wellbeing of animals is not the issue here. I don't think anyone here is arguing it's OK to kill gorillas for fun.

My point is that, if the word humanism has any meaning, it means attaching the highest intrinsic moral value to the human person. And this, in turn, entails that the only moral choice is to protect the human's life over the animal's regardless of the specifics of a situation.

[Antonio the Sixth]

As much as 'speciesism' is frankly annoying,

I thought you identified as a humanist.

I am. I don't see why I should lack concern for the wellbeing of animals given that animal husbandry is one of the hallmarks of what makes us human.

Lack of concern for the wellbeing of animals is not the issue here. I don't think anyone here is arguing it's OK to kill gorillas for fun.

My point is that, if the word humanism has any meaning, it means attaching the highest intrinsic moral value to the human person. And this, in turn, entails that the only moral choice is to protect the human's life over the animal's regardless of the specifics of a situation.

I think this is the part most people are taking issue with. At least, I know it's the part I am.

I mean, you're free to take issue with it. Just don't call yourself a humanist. Words need to have some kind of meaning to them.