This Once Great Movement Of Ours

[EastAnglianLefty]

A large proportion of the people complaining in the comments of that tweet have the Palestinian, EU and/or trans flags in their name/bio. Nationalism and pride is completely normal until it’s a political party using the flag of its own country.

However, I would caution against using these in Scotland and Wales.

Oh, you'll be fine, as long as you don't live in very specific parts of the Greater Glasgow area. Elsewhere you'll just be quietly judged by neighbours for being overtly political - in the same way middle-aged folk who still live in houses plastered with saltires, YES stickers and rude posters about the Tories are seen as a bit kooky.

Kinda surprised you missed off the one devolved nation that loves flag-waving (of every hue) more than any other...

To be fair, there's not much likelihood of Labour literature going out in the BT postcode area anytime soon.

[Wiswylfen]

Anyway I would be very interested to hear from Coldstream why, exactly, he thinks that it is of the utmost necessity that Labour wholeheartedly supports Zionism (nationalism), but also agrees that if you want people to stop conflating England with Britain and are able to correctly identify yourself that is English nationalism and extremely niche and why don't you find another party.

Immediately, that much is all I want.

Since, belatedly, I have realised that perhaps this post may be misunderstood: this was not about that at all, and as can be understood from "won't even follow" was about other things, such as soft-left MPs telling us that we don't have the time to bring water into public ownership while Starmer talks of the 'magic money tree' and continued cuts to local authority funding.

[Coldstream]

I’m waiting for Akehurst to tweet about it before I can work out how to articulate my views.

[Coldstream]

Actually this whole discussion is quite triggering because it reminds me of when I had to work with John Denham. By far the worst person Labour ever put in the cabinet.

[CumbrianLefty]

Actually this whole discussion is quite triggering because it reminds me of when I had to work with John Denham. By far the worst person Labour ever put in the cabinet.

A fair few contenders for that title......

I don't think he is so bad, though yes his absolute obsession with "Englishness" is a bit much.

[Wiswylfen]

I’m waiting for Akehurst to tweet about it before I can work out how to articulate my views.

I think I pretty conclusively proved the case that your argument was borrowed from someone else in the absence of one of your own—how an accusation that you'd had to resort to using something you read on Twitter earlier is 'conspiratorial' I have no idea. Sadly that post has since been deleted.

Good dodge, at any rate. Can you answer it or not?

I don't think he is so bad, though yes his absolute obsession with "Englishness" is a bit much.

He gets some things right and some things wrong. The Moreno answer voting habits and 'political Englishness' thing is a rather obvious example of the latter. On the conflation of 'England' with 'Britain' he is completely correct. This isn't a matter of English nationalism, Tristram Hunt-ism, or woke colours-ism: it's a matter of factual accuracy. I keep my English nationalism and my allegiance to social democracy separate—far from believing that the party should 'lead on English nationalism', I believe that the two should be kept that way.

[MaxQue]

Actually this whole discussion is quite triggering because it reminds me of when I had to work with John Denham. By far the worst person Labour ever put in the cabinet.

Working with people with principles is difficult for you?

[Coldstream]

Actually this whole discussion is quite triggering because it reminds me of when I had to work with John Denham. By far the worst person Labour ever put in the cabinet.

Working with people with principles is difficult for you?

Yes, that’s why I work for the Labour Party.

[Blair]

Actually this whole discussion is quite triggering because it reminds me of when I had to work with John Denham. By far the worst person Labour ever put in the cabinet.

I was going to joke please lets all return to the position where everyone in the party can agree- 'sh**ting on Blue Labour'

[Wiswylfen]

Actually this whole discussion is quite triggering because it reminds me of when I had to work with John Denham. By far the worst person Labour ever put in the cabinet.

I was going to joke please lets all return to the position where everyone in the party can agree- 'sh**ting on Blue Labour'

John Denham isn't in any way 'Blue Labour'. He's standard soft-left except for the focus on Englishness, which owes more to Billy Bragg than anyone or anything else.

[CumbrianLefty]

I see that the party's councillors in Pendle have thrown a strop. Though at least they didn't do this a week later, which really would have been indefensible.

[Wiswylfen]

Has there been any update on Graham Jones?

[Blair]

I’m curious for thoughts on what would need to change for a viable new party of the left to emerge?

It seems strange that there are essentially like 3-4 different forces all doing their own thing but no unified party- I assume the biggest barrier is the type of people who would end up being the high profile figures.

If JC set up the P&J party he could get at least 4 MPs, one or two peers and enough members to fund it.

[JimJamUK]

I’m curious for thoughts on what would need to change for a viable new party of the left to emerge?

Realistically, that would be the Greens. But if we’re only talking about a genuinely new party with popularity similar to Reform, then it would be Starmer commanding a very centrist government that implements at least 1 incredibly controversial policy that leads to MPs leaving the party and a lot of voter anger that doesn’t just drift into right wing populism/non-voting.

[Dan the Roman]

I’m curious for thoughts on what would need to change for a viable new party of the left to emerge?

Realistically, that would be the Greens. But if we’re only talking about a genuinely new party with popularity similar to Reform, then it would be Starmer commanding a very centrist government that implements at least 1 incredibly controversial policy that leads to MPs leaving the party and a lot of voter anger that doesn’t just drift into right wing populism/non-voting.

I feel the UK is probably too old for a radically economically leftwing party. Any party built around renters/students would rapidly be perceived as an attack on older home owners/pensioners, and viewed with suspicion due to the (likely) educational background of its members.

London is also a giant elephant in the room. A genuinely leftwing party would have to decide whether it is the party of London, or if London's dominance of the economy and governance is the chief driver of inequality.

[JimJamUK]

Realistically, that would be the Greens. But if we’re only talking about a genuinely new party with popularity similar to Reform, then it would be Starmer commanding a very centrist government that implements at least 1 incredibly controversial policy that leads to MPs leaving the party and a lot of voter anger that doesn’t just drift into right wing populism/non-voting.

I feel the UK is probably too old for a radically economically leftwing party. Any party built around renters/students would rapidly be perceived as an attack on older home owners/pensioners, and viewed with suspicion due to the (likely) educational background of its members.

London is also a giant elephant in the room. A genuinely leftwing party would have to decide whether it is the party of London, or if London's dominance of the economy and governance is the chief driver of inequality.

I largely agree in practice, but tbf the Lib Dems lasted a good few years as a party that was able to attract general protest voters as well as left of Labour ones. Whether a left of Labour Party could successfully appeal beyond the progressive left core vote would depend on who founded it in the first place and in opposition to what policies. If it was a new left or minorities focused party then it would obviously struggle, but one that focused on issues like the NHS or the working class could have a broader appeal. I do agree though that the latter looks very unlikely, as any new party with a small/committed membership would invariably be dominated by the progressive middle class activist and probably have even less connection to ordinary voters than our current major political parties.

[CumbrianLefty]

I’m curious for thoughts on what would need to change for a viable new party of the left to emerge?

It seems strange that there are essentially like 3-4 different forces all doing their own thing but no unified party- I assume the biggest barrier is the type of people who would end up being the high profile figures.

If JC set up the P&J party he could get at least 4 MPs, one or two peers and enough members to fund it.

There is limited desire to set up such a party as long as the Tories are in power, for obvious reasons.

[Filuwaúrdjan]

What would 'Left' even mean in that sort of context? I mention this not to be a prick for the sake of it, but historically there would have been only one possible meaning for a party of the radical Left in Britain - advocacy of the nationalization of, at least, the Commanding Heights of the economy and a transition to a planned economy* - and that is not exactly what is being talked of here. Of course for such a party there is, of course, no longer even a small electoral market (that world is gone), but that's not the point.

_{*No, no, loosely worded resolutions about the public ownership of certain utilities and forms of public transport categorically do not count, especially not from people who otherwise show a strong attachment to the notion of private property rights.}

[CumbrianLefty]

I suppose the question is if that is still the sort of thing that a modern "left" should primarily be about - even if it was historically the case. Its maybe as much a matter of philosophy as politics.

[Filuwaúrdjan]

Doug Hoyle (Lord Hoyle) MP for Nelson and Colne 1974(Oct)-79, Warrington 1981-83 and Warrington North 1983-1997 has died. He was ninety four and was the father of Sir Lindsay Hoyle, presently the Speaker of the House of Commons. He was an active and important member of the old ASTMS union in which he was a critical ally of Clive Jenkins. He twice defeated notable politicians to become an MP (David Waddington in October 1974, Roy Jenkins at the 1981 Warrington by-election) and was was one of the core group of Soft Left MPs who abstained on the second ballot of the 1981 Deputy Leadership contest, which allowed for Healey to narrowly ward off Benn's challenge. He chaired the PLP during the 1992-97 Parliament and was a government whip in the Lords during the first few years of the Blair government.

[Blair]

What would 'Left' even mean in that sort of context? I mention this not to be a prick for the sake of it, but historically there would have been only one possible meaning for a party of the radical Left in Britain - advocacy of the nationalization of, at least, the Commanding Heights of the economy and a transition to a planned economy* - and that is not exactly what is being talked of here. Of course for such a party there is, of course, no longer even a small electoral market (that world is gone), but that's not the point.

_{*No, no, loosely worded resolutions about the public ownership of certain utilities and forms of public transport categorically do not count, especially not from people who otherwise show a strong attachment to the notion of private property rights.}

I defined it as the 'Old New urban left' as you once described Corbyn! So people without the traditional links to trade unionism

My interest was spiked by the fact that chunks of this movement seem to be going to the greens; at risk of sounding crude it's largely the same sort of voters who went Liberal Democrat in 2005/2010 & then flirted with Labour in 2015, signed up to Corbynism and then well went various ways in the years since then!

It's weird how little coverage there has been of the greens; whether its their growth in local government, their surge in Conservative areas as the anti-Conservative alternative and the expected strength they'll get as being the urban progressive alternative to Labour.

[TheTide]

What would 'Left' even mean in that sort of context? I mention this not to be a prick for the sake of it, but historically there would have been only one possible meaning for a party of the radical Left in Britain - advocacy of the nationalization of, at least, the Commanding Heights of the economy and a transition to a planned economy* - and that is not exactly what is being talked of here. Of course for such a party there is, of course, no longer even a small electoral market (that world is gone), but that's not the point.

_{*No, no, loosely worded resolutions about the public ownership of certain utilities and forms of public transport categorically do not count, especially not from people who otherwise show a strong attachment to the notion of private property rights.}

I defined it as the 'Old New urban left' as you once described Corbyn! So people without the traditional links to trade unionism

My interest was spiked by the fact that chunks of this movement seem to be going to the greens; at risk of sounding crude it's largely the same sort of voters who went Liberal Democrat in 2005/2010 & then flirted with Labour in 2015, signed up to Corbynism and then well went various ways in the years since then!

It's weird how little coverage there has been of the greens; whether its their growth in local government, their surge in Conservative areas as the anti-Conservative alternative and the expected strength they'll get as being the urban progressive alternative to Labour.

The peak of Green Party coverage seems to have been in the run-up to the 2015 election, other than their 1989 Euros purple patch perhaps. Of course they were led by Natalie Bennett (not to be confused with the Israeli Prime Minister with a very similar name), possibly the least charismatic leader of any vaguely notable party the modern media age. I wonder how much better they would have done if Lucas had been leader at that point.

[CumbrianLefty]

Tbf they thought Bennett was good when they elected her, and some outside observers agreed.

It is fair to say that nobody saw *that* effectively career ending interview coming.

[MaxQue]

What would 'Left' even mean in that sort of context? I mention this not to be a prick for the sake of it, but historically there would have been only one possible meaning for a party of the radical Left in Britain - advocacy of the nationalization of, at least, the Commanding Heights of the economy and a transition to a planned economy* - and that is not exactly what is being talked of here. Of course for such a party there is, of course, no longer even a small electoral market (that world is gone), but that's not the point.

_{*No, no, loosely worded resolutions about the public ownership of certain utilities and forms of public transport categorically do not count, especially not from people who otherwise show a strong attachment to the notion of private property rights.}

I defined it as the 'Old New urban left' as you once described Corbyn! So people without the traditional links to trade unionism

My interest was spiked by the fact that chunks of this movement seem to be going to the greens; at risk of sounding crude it's largely the same sort of voters who went Liberal Democrat in 2005/2010 & then flirted with Labour in 2015, signed up to Corbynism and then well went various ways in the years since then!

It's weird how little coverage there has been of the greens; whether its their growth in local government, their surge in Conservative areas as the anti-Conservative alternative and the expected strength they'll get as being the urban progressive alternative to Labour.

It is not. The right-wing media will not given any air th the Left, especially now that they forced Starmer into a straightjacket and imposed a Tory Shadow Chancellor on him.

[Coldstream]

Natalie Bennett was also far better than Carla Denyer. She wasn’t as good as Caroline Lucas sure, but once Lucas seemed to lose her interest in the National level I don’t think Bennett disgraced the party.