Obama wants longer school year, teachers want shorter work week

[Swedish Rainbow Capitalist Cheese]

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 ^^^ This

I'm speaking from own experience that the right teacher can do miracles to teach his/her students what they need to know (and more) I've seen people who used to suck at a subject for one teacher, florish in it with another teacher.

Longer school years doesn't solve a damn thing. The last weeks of school even I have a hard time trying to focus on my actual work and need some time off.

Also LBJFan, Finland doesn't have year-around schooling (I don't know about Estonia and China) so I don't really think that has to do with their kids being better at math

[Citizen James]

Getting rid of bad teachers is well and good - I've seen some horrible ones out there, but how do we go about it?

If you base everything on multiple guess tests, you risk 'teaching to the test' - short circuiting actual learning in favor of rote memorization.

If you work on administrative (or even peer) review, you risk getting politics involved.  Would it really be fair to oust a teacher merely because they personally have conservative views.  (though conservative teachers are more likely to reject evidence based educational techniques in favor of doing it the 'way it's always been done'.)

Also, how do we attract highly qualified individuals to teaching?  How do we find those who have the appropriate talents (and what, exactly, are traits that make for a good teacher), and encourage them to pursue a career that involves working 60 to 80 hours a week (with summers 'off', or at least at a slower pace involving training and making lesson plans) at a pay rate half of most careers requiring a post-bacheloriate degree?

[Joe Biden 2020]

I'm totally against lengthening the school year or even the school day.  My reason is these kids need a break from school and need to get outside and play.  We are all for giving adults breaks, but what about kids?  They're human, too, and need rest just like their parents do.  I think having only 6-8 weeks off between the spring and fall semesters is not enough.  Kids need 10-12 weeks off.  I like the school day and school year the way they are.  Plus, some of children's best education comes from play and home.

[Torie]

I surprisingly agree with Opebo in his cynicism that you could do this Torie without raising the educational budget significantly in order to attract the best talent.  Measuring teacher talent is of course an incredibly difficult statistic to generate too.

How many fighter planes would we need to abort to save America's educational system?

It would be worth Lunar, if and only if, we had the necessary reforms, with vouchers, the power of principals to hire and fire, and a career track where the best teachers top out at maybe 150K in my zip code, maybe half that in say Arkansas.  If everyone gets paid the same with only worthless degrees and seniority affecting pay much, then of course out of the box, it is going to be drone city. That is one thing we cannot "afford," as we will find out in the next generation when the Asians whip our ass.

In this generation, we were able to just import the best and the brightest, but that flow is now substantially slowing, and so the chickens I think will be coming home to roost in the ensuing couple of decades, and defecating, as it were. This nation cannot prosper with just the top 10% getting a world class or better education. It just won't work.

[Sbane]

I'm totally against lengthening the school year or even the school day.  My reason is these kids need a break from school and need to get outside and play.  We are all for giving adults breaks, but what about kids?  They're human, too, and need rest just like their parents do.  I think having only 6-8 weeks off between the spring and fall semesters is not enough.  Kids need 10-12 weeks off.  I like the school day and school year the way they are.  Plus, some of children's best education comes from play and home.

Kids around the world manage and I am sure American kids will manage too. If not, they deserve to be crushed by those hardworking kids around the world. I am against extending the school day though.

[Badger]

I acknowledge that there are lousy teachers, just like every profession.

But as the son of someone who worked tirelessly as a public school teacher for almost 30 years may I just say that when I hear conservatives dismiss school funding realities as a problem and blame America's educational shortcomings on imagined widespread teacher incompetence it really makes me want to kick them in the balls.

Hard. Often. Repeatedly.

[MODU]

What we really need are teachers who did not get a teaching certificate with a C average from a third rate college, and the ability to hire the best, and fire the vast phalanxes of betas.  That is what we need. The rest is noise.

I'm not entirely sure how you accomplish that without drastically increasing teacher salaries.

We should.  That is the only way to get professionals involved.  However, I think the NEA would be a deterrant to the process.  Get the union out of the way and increase salaries, and I can easily see a spike in "quality" of education.  And from there, you wouldn't need things like NCLB.

[Vepres]

Rant Alert

Ok, let me explain something to you all. America's "failing schools" is bipartisan propaganda for the two parties to push their educational agendas. Good intentioned, maybe. Totally false, yes.

One, the vast majority of other countries in the world have high stakes tests before students enter high school to determine if they go the academic route or to a trade school. So, you compare the top 1/3 of Europeans against ALL Americans, the US will indeed rank lower. See, in the US we give everybody the chance, however small, to get into college. Most countries don't give people that option.

Here's the abstract of this non-partisan think tank's study.

You must be logged in to read this quote.

Two, the US has 50 of the world's top 100 colleges. 'Nuff said.

Three, many countries that supposedly "beat" us have comparatively little ethnic, racial, and cultural diversity.

Four, if our educational system is failing, then why do many foreigners come to the US for college studies?

Five, there are ignorant people everywhere in the world.

Phew, rant over

[Sbane]

Our colleges are certainly the best in the world and there is no debate over that. But have you seen who actually gets PHD's in this country? It's not Americans. I think at least half of the people getting advanced degrees should be Americans and we should make this happen by improving the education system at lower levels rather than having some stupid quota system.

[k-onmmunist]

We don't need longer school years.  What we need are better teachers.  We need more funding to hire better qualified teachers that are able to engage the students and turn them on to the material being taught.  Most of my teachers were boring and came across as not being interested in their own lesson plans.  If that changes, our performance levels will change.

What we need, essentially, is to instill a love of knowledge and intelligence into children and to encourage them to question everything they hear or read.

[Stampever]

We don't need longer school years.  What we need are better teachers.  We need more funding to hire better qualified teachers that are able to engage the students and turn them on to the material being taught.  Most of my teachers were boring and came across as not being interested in their own lesson plans.  If that changes, our performance levels will change.

What we need, essentially, is to instill a love of knowledge and intelligence into children and to encourage them to question everything they hear or read.

That is partially what I meant when I wrote "... and turn them on to the material being taught." 

[Mechaman]

I'm totally against lengthening the school year or even the school day.  My reason is these kids need a break from school and need to get outside and play.  We are all for giving adults breaks, but what about kids?  They're human, too, and need rest just like their parents do.  I think having only 6-8 weeks off between the spring and fall semesters is not enough.  Kids need 10-12 weeks off.  I like the school day and school year the way they are.  Plus, some of children's best education comes from play and home.

As someone who has been through the horror known as the Jenks School system, I totally agree.

[Vepres]

Our colleges are certainly the best in the world and there is no debate over that. But have you seen who actually gets PHD's in this country? It's not Americans. I think at least half of the people getting advanced degrees should be Americans and we should make this happen by improving the education system at lower levels rather than having some stupid quota system.

Cite please.

Perhaps it's because there are few decent PHD programs outside the US, thus the best and brightest in the world fight to get to US universities.

[Vepres]

I would like to add that many foreigners get financial support for being "minorities" or from "third world countries".

[Sbane]

Our colleges are certainly the best in the world and there is no debate over that. But have you seen who actually gets PHD's in this country? It's not Americans. I think at least half of the people getting advanced degrees should be Americans and we should make this happen by improving the education system at lower levels rather than having some stupid quota system.

Cite please.

Perhaps it's because there are few decent PHD programs outside the US, thus the best and brightest in the world fight to get to US universities.

I read somewhere the figure was 3/4th but I'll try and find a cite for you. And I don't find anything wrong with financing someone's education when they have proved they have what it takes to succeed in the program. Even a middle class Indian or Chinese is not going to be able to fund his studies in America. Also at the end of the education we end up losing a lot of them to other countries because of the difficulties companies face with the H1B system.

http://blogs.bnet.com/bnet1/?p=505

http://www.nytimes.com/glogin?URI=http://www.nytimes.com/2008/04/01/washington/01visa.html&OQ=_rQ3D1&OP=25c9f3feQ2FQ27Q3FZjQ27vT_UFTT-nQ27nll1Q27lQ2AQ27l(Q27Q3FpUy7Q20Q7C-TQ20Q27l(Q517UpQ2By-Q5Do

And here's a cite for the % of foreigners in phd programs. It was 71% in 2006.
http://news.cnet.com/8301-10784_3-9734099-7.html

[Vepres]

Our colleges are certainly the best in the world and there is no debate over that. But have you seen who actually gets PHD's in this country? It's not Americans. I think at least half of the people getting advanced degrees should be Americans and we should make this happen by improving the education system at lower levels rather than having some stupid quota system.

Cite please.

Perhaps it's because there are few decent PHD programs outside the US, thus the best and brightest in the world fight to get to US universities.

I read somewhere the figure was 3/4th but I'll try and find a cite for you. And I don't find anything wrong with financing someone's education when they have proved they have what it takes to succeed in the program. Even a middle class Indian or Chinese is not going to be able to fund his studies in America. Also at the end of the education we end up losing a lot of them to other countries because of the difficulties companies face with the H1B system.

http://blogs.bnet.com/bnet1/?p=505

http://www.nytimes.com/glogin?URI=http://www.nytimes.com/2008/04/01/washington/01visa.html&OQ=_rQ3D1&OP=25c9f3feQ2FQ27Q3FZjQ27vT_UFTT-nQ27nll1Q27lQ2AQ27l(Q27Q3FpUy7Q20Q7C-TQ20Q27l(Q517UpQ2By-Q5Do

Ok, I found a number on it here

40% of PHDs awarded by US universities go to foreign-born students.

[Sbane]

Ahh. My number was for engineers I am guessing.

[Vepres]

Of note, it appears that per capita, Japan ranks below the US for PHDs earned in people in their 20s and 30s, while China and India don't even appear on the list.

The interesting thing is the most intelligent people from other countries often stay in the United States.

Also of note is that who gets accepted into a university is decided by a committee. It's exponential, the more PHDs are granted to foreign born students, the more foreigners are on college admission committees, who I assume favor people from their country subconsciously.

[Citizen James]

We don't need longer school years.  What we need are better teachers.  We need more funding to hire better qualified teachers that are able to engage the students and turn them on to the material being taught.  Most of my teachers were boring and came across as not being interested in their own lesson plans.  If that changes, our performance levels will change.

What we need, essentially, is to instill a love of knowledge and intelligence into children and to encourage them to question everything they hear or read.

That is partially what I meant when I wrote "... and turn them on to the material being taught." 

Indeed, I agree that engagement is vital.  But it is also heavily attacked by conservatives.   Try and make a math problem that models real world situations, and they'll cry 'rainforest math', as though rote drill and memorization were the only real way to learn.  I know it sounds paradoxical that adding more content makes things easier, but that's because it provides framework, scaffolding, and purpose to the lesson.

I have a lesson that involves taking students outside and tossing tennis balls in the air and timing them.  The fact that the kids enjoy it doesn't detract from actually applying the quadratic formula to a real life observable situation - and for that matter helping to fulfill a key standard (CA algebra standard 23).

Meanwhile, while we complain about science scores we have scores of people (often the same people) opposing the teaching of science such as evolutionary theory.

[Torie]

Rant Alert

Ok, let me explain something to you all. America's "failing schools" is bipartisan propaganda for the two parties to push their educational agendas. Good intentioned, maybe. Totally false, yes.

One, the vast majority of other countries in the world have high stakes tests before students enter high school to determine if they go the academic route or to a trade school. So, you compare the top 1/3 of Europeans against ALL Americans, the US will indeed rank lower. See, in the US we give everybody the chance, however small, to get into college. Most countries don't give people that option.

Here's the abstract of this non-partisan think tank's study.

You must be logged in to read this quote.

Two, the US has 50 of the world's top 100 colleges. 'Nuff said.

Three, many countries that supposedly "beat" us have comparatively little ethnic, racial, and cultural diversity.

Four, if our educational system is failing, then why do many foreigners come to the US for college studies?

Five, there are ignorant people everywhere in the world.

Phew, rant over

The US has some splendid centers of higher education. Outside upper middle class zones, it's secondary public school educational system largely sucks, and is way down in ranking vis a vis most other developed nations, and it is getting worse, not better, over time.  Thus we are developing is a two tier system, where the top layer gets well educated and the rest get screwed. This is not a good policy road to go down.

[opebo]

...Outside upper middle class zones, it's secondary public school educational system largely sucks, and is way down in ranking vis a vis most other developed nations, and it is getting worse, not better, over time.  This we are developing a two tier system, where the top layer gets well educated and the rest get screwed. This is not a good policy road to go down.

Dude, you're making a criticism of your social hierarchy, not the educational bureaucracy.