Democrats threaten to sabotage recovery rather than give up tax hike demands

[WhyteRain]

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Well, it's nice "they" are prepared to weather a new recession. 

Have the Democrats even agreed on what their tax hike demand is yet?  The last I heard, they were pushing back against their own President's demand for hikes on people making $250,000.  (Isn't it weird how Obama is always demanding the Repubs compromise when he can't even get his own party members to agree on one plan?)

[WhyteRain]

So the democrats are just adopting republican tactics.

I don't think you can find a time where the Repubs threatened to knowingly plunge the nation back into recession if they couldn't get their way.  Maybe one or two Congressmen, but not a "party position".

Anyway, we saw in 2008 what the Democrats can do to the economy when they put their minds to it, so I would take this newest threat very seriously.

I hope you'll read both these articles -- neither from a "right wing" source -- carefully. 

This first one's from the LA Times

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How incredibly prescient, right?

This second one's from 10 days later, from Bloomberg:

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More incredible prescience.  (On a personal note, I took a huge amount of money out of my investments in July, 2008 -- reducing my xposure by about half.  I wish I could take credit, but it was my younger brother who kept at me on the phone about "Fannie Mae-this" and "Freddie Mac-that" and "mortgage bank disaster".  Still, I lost 24% of my portfolio in 2008.)

The next time someone asks what triggered (the immediate trigger; we know there were systemic issues) the 2008 financial crash, these two articles should be among the first they should be shown.

[WhyteRain]

So the democrats are just adopting republican tactics.

I don't think you can find a time where the Repubs threatened to knowingly plunge the nation back into recession if they couldn't get their way.  Maybe one or two Congressmen, but not a "party position".

Anyway, we saw in 2008 what the Democrats can do to the economy when they put their minds to it, so I would take this newest threat very seriously.

Did you forget the debt ceiling crap the Republicans pulled recently?

I remember how it was characterized by the MSM.  Do you have some verifiable quotes from Republicans to share on it?

[WhyteRain]

So the democrats are just adopting republican tactics.

I don't think you can find a time where the Repubs threatened to knowingly plunge the nation back into recession if they couldn't get their way.

That is... hysterical.

Wouldn't it be more satisfying to prove me wrong?  No?

[WhyteRain]

Firstly, I reject the premise that causing a recession necessarily constitutes "sabotaging the economy" if it's the consequence of policies that improve the long term fiscal picture.

I think you have a good point.

I recall in 1979 or early-1980 when I was the "wire editor" (that is, international and national news) at a newspaper.  I read that Fed Chairman Paul Volcker said that the Fed was going to choke off the money supply in order to fight inflation.  At our "news budget" meeting that day, I tried to convince the editors that this was a huge story, a front-page story -- because the Fed was essentially saying that it was going to deliberately plunge us into a recession.  Alas, I couldn't convince them to put it on the front page, but I did put the story at the very top of my pages, with a full page headline.

It turned out that that recession was a "good" one -- hard on a lot of people but it finally choked off the horrendous inflation that had plagued America all through the 1970s.

So, I think your point about a "good recession" is well-taken.

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Good point.  Nope, the Clinton tax hikes didn't cause a recession in 1993-94, although the economy didn't really take off until the enactment of the big tax cut in 1997.

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Well, I thought liberals were disdainful of "austerity" (which seems to be defined mostly as slower-than-usual government growth), but, okay.  I think a lot of conservatives would agree with you that, like an addict trying to kick heroin, the U.S. economy will have to undergo a wretching adjustment when -- not if -- when we finally have to get serious about government deficits and debt.  I think conservatives are ready to make those sacrifices; are liberals?

[WhyteRain]

So the democrats are just adopting republican tactics.

I don't think you can find a time where the Repubs threatened to knowingly plunge the nation back into recession if they couldn't get their way.

That is... hysterical.

Wouldn't it be more satisfying to prove me wrong?  No?

Go back about a year and a half ago...

What did the Republicans threaten to do if the tax cuts weren't extended for the top 2%??

Oh yeah they threatened to let the tax cuts expire for everyone unless it was extended for those making over $250,000. 

Got some quotes for these "threats"?

[WhyteRain]

So the democrats are just adopting republican tactics.

I don't think you can find a time where the Repubs threatened to knowingly plunge the nation back into recession if they couldn't get their way.

That is... hysterical.

Wouldn't it be more satisfying to prove me wrong?  No?

Go back about a year and a half ago...

What did the Republicans threaten to do if the tax cuts weren't extended for the top 2%??

Oh yeah they threatened to let the tax cuts expire for everyone unless it was extended for those making over $250,000. 

Do you really have to go back that far? There was that whole debt ceiling blackmail a year ago.

Got some quotes to support this claim?

[WhyteRain]

So the democrats are just adopting republican tactics.

I don't think you can find a time where the Repubs threatened to knowingly plunge the nation back into recession if they couldn't get their way.  Maybe one or two Congressmen, but not a "party position".

Anyway, we saw in 2008 what the Democrats can do to the economy when they put their minds to it, so I would take this newest threat very seriously.

Did you forget the debt ceiling crap the Republicans pulled recently?

I remember how it was characterized by the MSM.  Do you have some verifiable quotes from Republicans to share on it?

I know you will either be denying this, spin it or try to distort it and of course I could prove that the sky is blue and if your information sources tell you it is red you will fight it off despite the obvious evidence by looking up. But either way this is more than enough evidence.

http://nymag.com/daily/intel/2011/08/mitch_mcconnell_okay_fine_were.html

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Thanks, Mr. Gonzalez, for doing some actual research on the issue.  I shouldn't be the only one.

I would LOVE to address this now, but I need to run.  I will probably be gone the rest of the day.

I guess I have just time to leave you with a quote from the underlying story cited by your link:

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So, if Repubs were threatening to "risk a default", it certainly seems the White House was, too, right?

[WhyteRain]

So the democrats are just adopting republican tactics.

I don't think you can find a time where the Repubs threatened to knowingly plunge the nation back into recession if they couldn't get their way.

That is... hysterical.

Wouldn't it be more satisfying to prove me wrong?  No?

Go back about a year and a half ago...

What did the Republicans threaten to do if the tax cuts weren't extended for the top 2%??

Oh yeah they threatened to let the tax cuts expire for everyone unless it was extended for those making over $250,000. 

Got some quotes for these "threats"?

Filibusters on plans to extend the tax cuts for those who make under $250,000 and then another filibuster or the extension of the tax cuts for those that make less than $1million

Thanks but I was looking for, you know, "quotes" from, you know, the people actually making the threats.  I know what the MSM narrative is.

[WhyteRain]

You honestly don't remember the events of almost a year ago?

http://articles.nydailynews.com/2011-07-29/news/29844216_1_debt-limit-economy-hostage-political-party

http://www.washingtonmonthly.com/political-animal/2011_08/mitch_mcconnell_hostage_taker031287.php

No, of course you don't.  Nobody does.  Such is the nature of US politics.  Nor will people remember this in a few weeks.

I'm guess this is directed at me, but I'm not sure.

Look, I know the MSM narrative; everyone does:  "Obama and the Democrats were being perfectly reasonable in the debt ceiling negotiations, and recoiled at the prospect of an impasse that would cause a default.  But Republicans -- especially the Tea Partyers who have seized control of the GOP -- were not.  In fact, many of them wanted to make the U.S. default purely out of ideology or spite for a president they hated."

Right?

What if the narrative is not just a lie, but a damned lie?

Look, let's start with the very basics:  FOUR UNDENIABLE FACTS ABOUT THE DEBT CEILING STANDOFF:

1.  The Republicans had a long term debt plan (called "Cut, Cap, and Balance").
2.  The Republicans were willing to negotiate a short term debt plan.
3.  Obama and the Democrats had no long term debt plan, and;
4.  Obama and the Democrats were not willing to negotiate a short term one.

It seems to me, then, that we need to assign some level of insanity to those who would blame Republicans for the stand-off from the beginning.

But we're not done.  Those four facts describe the initial bargaining position of the parties:  The Democrats had no plan at all and refused to negotiate a short term one.  (They were willing to "toss out ideas" like "well, maybe we can cut entitlements" in exchange for ironclad promises of tax increases from a party that had just won a smashing election on a pledge not to raise taxes -- and who had seen the Democrats scam both Pres. Reagan and Bush 41 with this tactic.)  The Republicans had "Cut, Cap, and Balance" but they were not demanding that Obama accede to it; they were willing to negotiate a short-term plan.

Now we need to see which of the parties was actually ready to see the government default, right?  Isn't that where we are at?