Knox and Sollecito cleared of all changes

[Antonio the Sixth]

Just breaking.

At last, justice has prevailed.

[Antonio the Sixth]

Disgusting.

The principle of reasonable doubt is disgusting?

[Antonio the Sixth]

What the hell is wrong with you people?

[Antonio the Sixth]

What the hell is wrong with you people?

Why be happy that someone who almost certainly committed murder were acquitted?

[citation needed]

There is literally no direct evidence whatsoever.

[Antonio the Sixth]

What the hell is wrong with you people?

Why be happy that someone who almost certainly committed murder were acquitted?

[citation needed]

There is literally no direct evidence whatsoever.

No citation, but you can not expect those of us who  think they were guilty as hell to be happy about this.

(post was an answer to your "what the hell is wrong with you" outburst)

It is irrelevant whether you "think" they were guilty. You don't sentence people based on gut feelings. You sentence people based on evidence (of which, again, there was none).

[Antonio the Sixth]

What the hell is wrong with you people?

Why be happy that someone who almost certainly committed murder were acquitted?

[citation needed]

There is literally no direct evidence whatsoever.

No citation, but you can not expect those of us who  think they were guilty as hell to be happy about this.

(post was an answer to your "what the hell is wrong with you" outburst)

It is irrelevant whether you "think" they were guilty. You don't sentence people based on gut feelings. You sentence people based on evidence (of which, again, there was none).

Disgusting is an emotional, gut feeling term. So those things are relevant for whether I (and otjers) find this disgusting. Sometimes some of us would prefer a legally incorrect conviction of people we are convinced are murderers/rapists/crooks whatever. You are a very idealistic young man, some of us are less pure of heart, such is reality.

I had no idea that embracing the principles that form the very basis of the rule of law in one's personal reaction to trials was a particularly unusual or idealistic attitude.

[Antonio the Sixth]

What the hell is wrong with you people?

Why be happy that someone who almost certainly committed murder were acquitted?

[citation needed]

There is literally no direct evidence whatsoever.

No citation, but you can not expect those of us who  think they were guilty as hell to be happy about this.

(post was an answer to your "what the hell is wrong with you" outburst)

It is irrelevant whether you "think" they were guilty. You don't sentence people based on gut feelings. You sentence people based on evidence (of which, again, there was none).

Disgusting is an emotional, gut feeling term. So those things are relevant for whether I (and others) find this disgusting. Sometimes some of us would prefer a legally incorrect conviction of people we are convinced are murderers/rapists/crooks whatever. You are a very idealistic young man, some of us are less pure of heart, such is reality.

I had no idea that embracing the principles that form the very basis of the rule of law in one's personal reaction to trials was a particularly unusual or idealistic attitude.

I have never seen a poll on this, but I think most people react to the outcome of high profile trials according to whether they think the accused are guilty or not. Judging on whether the ruling is legally correct is in my experience a minority position.

I mean, it is one thing where a clearly guilty person is acquitted due to a procedural mishap or another legality of some sort. But this is not what happened in this case. There is no basis to find Knox and Sollecito guilty because there is no basis to think, with a reasonable degree of certainty, that they are guilty. Of course you can feel deep down in yourself (based on frivolous things like their demeanor, or a certain narrative you found convincing), that they are guilty. But if you would send someone to jail over such gut feeling, then you honestly scare me.

[Antonio the Sixth]

I would really be interested in hearing what Politicus, or anyone who actually thinks they are guilty, has to say. I honestly cannot understand how anyone could conclude, based on evidence, that there is any serious reason to believe they committed the murder. Everything in this case reeks of manipulation on the part of the police and stubbornness on the part of the prosecution, which made up the most ridiculous excuses to hide the simple fact that it made a mistake early on. It really is one of the most blatant cases of wrongful prosecution I have ever witnessed firsthand.

Funnily enough Italy's criminal procedure has strongly influenced most Latin American legal systems... and that's why most of them are awful.

Really? I had no idea. Pretty poor choice on their part, indeed.

[Antonio the Sixth]

Nobody? Well, for people who are supposedly "disgusted" you sure aren't adamant about expressing the motives of your disgust.

Worth noting that the Court of Cassation had the possibility to acquit them for lack of evidence, but instead chose to issue a verdict of full exoneration. The motives of the verdict will be issued within 3 months, I'm really curious to see them. I'm sure they will say what anyone who has been paying close attention to the case has been saying for a long time: that there was never a case against them whatsoever.

[Antonio the Sixth]

Nobody? Well, for people who are supposedly "disgusted" you sure aren't adamant about expressing the motives of your disgust.

There really is no point in discussing this.

Why? This case is extremely relevant with regard to a number of political and social issues, ranging from the way criminal investigations are conducted, the burden of proof that should be placed on prosecution, the corporatism of judges, the role of media narratives and lynch-mob mentalities, etc. Wrongful prosecution and imprisonment are a pretty big deal in my view. I don't see what makes this particular occurrence unworthy of being scrutinized in detail.

[Antonio the Sixth]

For those who are interested, the Cassation Court recently released the official reasoning behind the verdict. It's obviously written in tedious legalese, but a summary of its main findings and their significance can be found here.

Relevant excerpt:

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Truly a bright day for justice in Italy.

[Antonio the Sixth]

It is amazing, Tony, that we fight on just about every issue and yet on this relatively minor issue (in the grand scheme of things) we are in a hundred percent agreement .

Well, wrongful conviction in general is everything but a minor issue to me - and I hope you'll agree with me that it's a serious problem in the US as well (made even more tragic by the existence of the death penalty). But anyway yeah, I'm glad we could at least agree on this.

And I really hope this verdict will have a lasting impact on jurisprudence. When you look at judicial rationale given for the past verdicts (especially the first one from the Cassation Court, reversing the not guilty verdict of the first Appeals Court and remanding), the sheer disregard for the law and even basic logic was stunning. Judges in Italy do have a tendency to rule based on "gut feelings" (or even worse, to uphold the prosecution's case because prosecutors are their colleagues and friends). And I feel that the Berlusconi fiasco has made many left-wingers in Italy somewhat blind to these issues and unquestioning of the justice system.