Spain election maps
       |           

Welcome, Guest. Please login or register.
Did you miss your activation email?
May 03, 2024, 10:58:17 AM
News: Election Simulator 2.0 Released. Senate/Gubernatorial maps, proportional electoral votes, and more - Read more

  Talk Elections
  Other Elections - Analysis and Discussion
  International Elections (Moderators: afleitch, Hash)
  Spain election maps
« previous next »
Pages: 1 2 3 4 [5] 6
Author Topic: Spain election maps  (Read 39465 times)
Velasco
andi
Junior Chimp
*****
Posts: 5,709
Western Sahara


WWW Show only this user's posts in this thread
« Reply #100 on: June 20, 2013, 04:52:24 PM »

In my opinion that collision between opposite tendencies only can be solved by a sort of asymmetric federalism, given that peripheral regions want more devolution and the interior regions a stronger central administration. That's why I'm not fond with UPyD stances for centralism or symmetric federalism.

As you say, the politicization of the Justice is a great trouble. Regarding territorial conflicts, in my opinion the 2010 sentence by the Constitutional Court on the Catalan Statute was, to a great extent, based on political criteria and has damaged very much. The depoliticizing of the high courts is an urgent matter and not very easy to lead to term.

I don't have an opinion on PSOE's proposals on Justice right now. Of course, if it leads to a Reino de Taifas regime, I would be against. On the other hand, decentralization of Justice is not bad per se, it depends on how it's expressed.
Logged
Nanwe
Rookie
**
Posts: 219
Spain


Political Matrix
E: 2.06, S: -8.00

Show only this user's posts in this thread
« Reply #101 on: June 20, 2013, 04:58:38 PM »
« Edited: June 21, 2013, 12:06:49 PM by Nanwe »

In my opinion that collision between opposite tendencies only can be solved by a sort of asymmetric federalism, given that peripheral regions want more devolution and the interior regions a stronger central administration. That's why I'm not fond with UPyD stances for centralism or symmetric federalism.

As you say, the politicization of the Justice is a great trouble. Regarding territorial conflicts, in my opinion the 2010 sentence by the Constitutional Court on the Catalan Statute was, to a great extent, based on political criteria and has damaged very much. The depoliticizing of the high courts is an urgent matter and not very easy to lead to term.

I don't have an opinion on PSOE's proposals on Justice right now. Of course, if it leads to a Reino de Taifas regime, I would be against. On the other hand, decentralization of Justice is not bad per se, it depends on how it's expressed.

From what I've read, it'd turn the regional justice tribunals (liek the TSJC) into last appeal courts except in extremely serious case, in which case the TS would intervene. The role for the TC? No idea and ofc the CGPJ would lose all its power. This plus Gallardón's "reform" would just turn our justice into a banana republic one. This is the stuff by far that most sickens me about our political system.

Also, there's this blog "Comitia Mundi" has an interesting on how Spanish parties use populism and how it manifests in different ways.

(Newbie question: I can't send nor read my PMs, so how do I contact the admins to fix the problem if I can't PM them?)
Logged
MaxQue
Atlas Icon
*****
Posts: 12,629
Canada


Show only this user's posts in this thread
« Reply #102 on: June 21, 2013, 10:55:25 PM »

(Newbie question: I can't send nor read my PMs, so how do I contact the admins to fix the problem if I can't PM them?)

It's a generalized problem, so he should be aware at some point.
Logged
Niemeyerite
JulioMadrid
Junior Chimp
*****
Posts: 6,807
Spain


Political Matrix
E: -8.65, S: -9.04

Show only this user's posts in this thread
« Reply #103 on: June 22, 2013, 08:45:07 PM »

From Nanwe (he can't post links):

http://tinypic.com/view.php?pic=35layhy&s=5

Salud y República!
Logged
Velasco
andi
Junior Chimp
*****
Posts: 5,709
Western Sahara


WWW Show only this user's posts in this thread
« Reply #104 on: June 22, 2013, 11:52:21 PM »


Ah, the old complaint about our imperfect electoral system Wink. I think we can discuss election-related issues on here but, on the other hand, certain topics Nanwe introduced in the discussion would be better in a proper thread, in the International General Discussion board. I didn't answer all the topics and I have my own opinion, of course. The question is that we are too few Spaniards on here and I'm not sure if people from abroad cares too much. I'm Republican at heart and, by the way, I've been reading something really sad about the period of the Civil War (Max Aub's Campo del Moro and Campo de los Almendros, to be precise). I'd like that Salud y República was something more than a mere slogan.
Logged
Nanwe
Rookie
**
Posts: 219
Spain


Political Matrix
E: 2.06, S: -8.00

Show only this user's posts in this thread
« Reply #105 on: June 23, 2013, 03:40:38 AM »

Falangist cries were better Tongue They shouted '¡CAFE!' (meaning: compañeros, arriba Falange Española) .

Oh yes, the good ol' issue of electoral reform. I would be content (though not really satisfied) with the use of the Hare formula with the already existing 52 constituencies, since it's the easiest way to change the electoral law.

andi, do you happen to know about Portuguese politics? I'm doing a project about a Spain including Portugal but basically I know nothing of Portuguese politics Sad .
Logged
Velasco
andi
Junior Chimp
*****
Posts: 5,709
Western Sahara


WWW Show only this user's posts in this thread
« Reply #106 on: June 23, 2013, 12:44:04 PM »

andi, do you happen to know about Portuguese politics? I'm doing a project about a Spain including Portugal but basically I know nothing of Portuguese politics Sad .

Just generic, I'm far from knowing politics in Portugal in depth. Spaniards are not in the habit of paying too much attention to their neighbours. What kind of project is yours?

As for electoral systems, the only that I like is the mixed-member proportional representation (Germany, New Zealand). Not so popular in Spain, I only heard some vague allusions from Rubalcaba and certain nasty proposals by Aguirre and her butler successor about introducing single constituencies in Madrid.
Logged
Leftbehind
YaBB God
*****
Posts: 3,639
United Kingdom


Show only this user's posts in this thread
« Reply #107 on: June 23, 2013, 12:57:45 PM »

Doubled. Smiley
Logged
Velasco
andi
Junior Chimp
*****
Posts: 5,709
Western Sahara


WWW Show only this user's posts in this thread
« Reply #108 on: June 23, 2013, 01:42:05 PM »


I don't want to cool down your enthusiasm, but CEO (a sociological institute depending on Catalan government) predicted 70 seats for CiU, the governing party, and finally only got 50. Another recent poll gives the CUP only 3 seats. Both polls coincide in stating that the center-left separatist ERC is gaining ground at the expense of the center-right sovereignist CiU and it's likely surpassing it. I think it makes sense in the current context, but I'd be cautious about the polls. On the other hand, if you don't sympathise with separatism, wouldn't be ICV-EUiA a better option for you?
Logged
Leftbehind
YaBB God
*****
Posts: 3,639
United Kingdom


Show only this user's posts in this thread
« Reply #109 on: June 23, 2013, 04:13:14 PM »

Oh yeah, ICV-EUiA would be my vote but I wouldn't mind more leftists in parliament (even if they are seperatists).
Logged
Nanwe
Rookie
**
Posts: 219
Spain


Political Matrix
E: 2.06, S: -8.00

Show only this user's posts in this thread
« Reply #110 on: June 24, 2013, 09:44:50 AM »

andi, do you happen to know about Portuguese politics? I'm doing a project about a Spain including Portugal but basically I know nothing of Portuguese politics Sad .

Just generic, I'm far from knowing politics in Portugal in depth. Spaniards are not in the habit of paying too much attention to their neighbours. What kind of project is yours?

As for electoral systems, the only that I like is the mixed-member proportional representation (Germany, New Zealand). Not so popular in Spain, I only heard some vague allusions from Rubalcaba and certain nasty proposals by Aguirre and her butler successor about introducing single constituencies in Madrid.

I like MMP too. But it would require changing the Constitution (unless the single constituencies were based on the provinces, in which case, they wouldn't be single-member ones and I don't know to what extent opening up the Constitution is such a good idea. Yeah, I remember reading about Rubalcaba's proposal in Publico two summers ago or so, but I haven't been able to find the article online. I also looked at Gonzalez's proposal and although I like MMP, the proposed constituencies were not even close in their population. It gave the various neighbourhoods of Madrid too much weight (or  rather the large cities, like Alcala not enough)
Logged
Velasco
andi
Junior Chimp
*****
Posts: 5,709
Western Sahara


WWW Show only this user's posts in this thread
« Reply #111 on: June 24, 2013, 03:09:00 PM »


I like MMP too. But it would require changing the Constitution (unless the single constituencies were based on the provinces, in which case, they wouldn't be single-member ones and I don't know to what extent opening up the Constitution is such a good idea.

As Julius Caesar told to Brutus: "You too my son?" It's amazing how many followers of the doctrine Rajoy are around. The only way of reforming Spain is "opening" that sacred and incorruptible Constitution.

I also looked at Gonzalez's proposal and although I like MMP, the proposed constituencies were not even close in their population. It gave the various neighbourhoods of Madrid too much weight (or  rather the large cities, like Alcala not enough)

That's why I said Aguirre's minion proposal was "nasty".
Logged
Nanwe
Rookie
**
Posts: 219
Spain


Political Matrix
E: 2.06, S: -8.00

Show only this user's posts in this thread
« Reply #112 on: June 25, 2013, 05:53:48 AM »


I like MMP too. But it would require changing the Constitution (unless the single constituencies were based on the provinces, in which case, they wouldn't be single-member ones and I don't know to what extent opening up the Constitution is such a good idea.

As Julius Caesar told to Brutus: "You too my son?" It's amazing how many followers of the doctrine Rajoy are around. The only way of reforming Spain is "opening" that sacred and incorruptible Constitution.

Opening the Constitution is going to be messy, really messy and no one has a clear idea of what they want. Personally, I'd prefer that the Constitution laid down the competences of the autonomies, possibly repatriating education and/or healthcare (the latter is more politically feasible,I 'd say) to Madrid. I did some outline of changes in the Constitution I'd like to see. But there are worse (by far) things in the different organic laws than the Constitution itself.

I'm not even opposed to the monarchy Tongue The problem with modifying the Constitution is that unless you change the 1st or the 2nd Titles, it can be changed without any kind of public referendum, which is scary. And no one wants to change the 1st Title, AFAIK. The Crown one, on the other hand...
Logged
Velasco
andi
Junior Chimp
*****
Posts: 5,709
Western Sahara


WWW Show only this user's posts in this thread
« Reply #113 on: June 25, 2013, 06:39:46 AM »

Well, I hadn't monarchy in mind in the previous post. I see pretty useless replacing our King for a President without making some fundamental changes. One thing is to be Republican at heart and another is to think that a Republic is the magic medicine that will cure all our diseases.

Of course a reform would be messy and scary, because the constitutional design was made in a way that changes are extremely difficult. However, see how PSOE and PP arranged a little but significant reform in our Constitutional text when Zapatero was under pressure by the infamous Troika.

I'm afraid that you are a loyal UPyD supporter and I don't like very much the idea of re-centralization. If the idea behind giving back the Spain's Government competences on Education is replacing one nationalist view with another, sorry, I'm not very enthusiastic with that perspective. The problem with such views is that they pretend to apply homogeneity in an extremely heterogeneous country. As for Healthcare, in fact many regions didn't want the competences when Aznar decided to give them; "café para todos" ("coffee for everybody"), said Pujol. This don't apply for Catalonia, Basque Country and other places. It's not viable forcing regions with a great will of self-rule to give back power. On the other hand, I doubt it would be desirable, maybe with the exception of regions where people want less autonomy. Just food for separatism and unrest, and I think waters are troubled enough right now.

Oh, and there is that nasty administrative reform that Rajoy is proposing, without changing nothing important and hoping that regions will make the dirty work, because in many cases competences are transferred. 

This discussion is going too off-topic. Should I start another thread?
Logged
Associate Justice PiT
PiT (The Physicist)
Atlas Politician
Atlas Superstar
*****
Posts: 31,178
United States


Show only this user's posts in this thread
« Reply #114 on: June 25, 2013, 07:21:11 AM »

     As I understand it, they initially intended to only apply the name of "autonomous community" to Galicia, Basque Country, and Catalonia, but that idea fell by the wayside when other regions decided that they wanted similar recognition. Considering the differing traditions of the different regions, I think it would be good to revisit the issue of recognizing those regions that are more culturally independent from Madrid than the norm.
Logged
Franknburger
Jr. Member
***
Posts: 1,401
Germany


Show only this user's posts in this thread
« Reply #115 on: June 25, 2013, 09:12:20 AM »

As to decentralisation: An interesting and worthwhile target may be regional and local transport (especially the rail bound part). Inspired by the example of the French TER, German rail reform included transfer of local and regional lines (essentially everything that is not high-speed or freight-only) to the States, giving them full network ownership as well as authority to regulate (and typically also the duty to subsidise) local and regional traffic. This has lead to the reopening of many lines that had been closed in the 1980s, and, together with quality improvements pushed through on State level, resulted in steadily rising passenger numbers.
I am not sure if decentralising healthcare is a good idea. The supply side is fine (but isn't that already quite decentralised in Spain?). However, if you start to also decentralise the revenue side / financing mechanisms, you are potentially making things more complicated for larger companies and especially international investors, and that is not necessarily what Spain needs right now. 
Logged
Niemeyerite
JulioMadrid
Junior Chimp
*****
Posts: 6,807
Spain


Political Matrix
E: -8.65, S: -9.04

Show only this user's posts in this thread
« Reply #116 on: June 25, 2013, 10:02:20 AM »

When I read Andy, I feel we have the same opinions on everything. We should form a new party or something.

Now that this is off-topic enough, what's your opinion about Miguel Ángel Revilla? For those who are not Spaniards, he served as President of Cantabria from 2003 to 2011 in a coalition with socialists. In 2011, PP won an absolute majority but the "Partido Regionalista cántabro" got the best results ever, with almost 30% of the vote.

I actually like the guy, I had the opportunity to meet him on the Feria del Libro, last weekend, and decided to buy his book. I've just finished reading it. It was really fun and at the same time I think he has some good ideas on the economy.
Logged
Nanwe
Rookie
**
Posts: 219
Spain


Political Matrix
E: 2.06, S: -8.00

Show only this user's posts in this thread
« Reply #117 on: June 25, 2013, 01:29:34 PM »

Well, I hadn't monarchy in mind in the previous post. I see pretty useless replacing our King for a President without making some fundamental changes. One thing is to be Republican at heart and another is to think that a Republic is the magic medicine that will cure all our diseases.

Which is kind of my position. I am in theory a republican, but at the moment the status quo in regards to the monarchy is fine by me, probably make Juan Carlos abdicate and clean it up, but obviously, a Republic is still too much politicized (reds, commies, workers' paradise, if Franco raised his head, blah, blah, blah)

Of course a reform would be messy and scary, because the constitutional design was made in a way that changes are extremely difficult. However, see how PSOE and PP arranged a little but significant reform in our Constitutional text when Zapatero was under pressure by the infamous Troika.

Well that was the idea. The whole 1977 democracy was designed to avoid the many many flaws of the 19th century liberal state and the 2nd Republic political processes. In fact even at the times of 1976's Ley de asociaciones politicas speech by Suarez (as Secretario General del Movimiento under Arias-Navarro) was unequivocal about 'a state that neither recognizes nor persecutes contrary political ideas, but rather ignores them altogether, would be too similar to the 19th century liberal state' Ofc liberal being a dirty word back then.

I'm afraid that you are a loyal UPyD supporter and I don't like very much the idea of re-centralization. If the idea behind giving back the Spain's Government competences on Education is replacing one nationalist view with another, sorry, I'm not very enthusiastic with that perspective. The problem with such views is that they pretend to apply homogeneity in an extremely heterogeneous country. As for Healthcare, in fact many regions didn't want the competences when Aznar decided to give them; "café para todos" ("coffee for everybody"), said Pujol. This don't apply for Catalonia, Basque Country and other places. It's not viable forcing regions with a great will of self-rule to give back power. On the other hand, I doubt it would be desirable, maybe with the exception of regions where people want less autonomy. Just food for separatism and unrest, and I think waters are troubled enough right now.

Don't be afraid Tongue Secondly, I'm not a 'loyal UPyD supporter' and indeed I defend federalism, not the current messy system. But my main concern about decentralization is that many communities are one party regions (PSOE misrule in Andalucia, PP misrule in Valencia) and that will politicize education. Nevertheless, education is ok by me, as well as it is, to a lesser degree, healthcare. Healthcare is just too damn expensive to run at a regional level, except for big autonomies like Madrid, Catalonia or Andalucia. My main problem is that we have some regions that make no sense due to being too small (yes, I'm pointing at you, Cantabria, Asturias, La Rioja and perhaps Murcia) or too big (Andalucia).

In any case a small amount of recentralization is rational in economic aspects. For example, the recent Ley de unidad de mercado, which will force all CCAA to have same regulations for products and licensing. It's common sense, you can't have 17 different standards within a country for that.

A different system of regional equalization needs to be set up. The current one makes sense, from what I've read, Valencia gives money to the Vascongadas (just wanted to say it like that Tongue) when the Basques are one of the richest regions in Spain and all because of the silly fueros, an absolute feudal anachronism.

Also, I'm not a Spanish nationalist, in fact, I am not a fan of nationalism, although it seems as if being Catalan nationalist was more acceptable than Spanish (well, Franco and what not) but to me, it's as silly and as bad.

Oh, and there is that nasty administrative reform that Rajoy is proposing, without changing nothing important and hoping that regions will make the dirty work, because in many cases competences are transferred. 

Now, I didn't say Rajoy had balls, did I? Tongue

This discussion is going too off-topic. Should I start another thread?

It is probably a good idea, I didn't want to change the thread's raison d'être.

PiT, it also included Andalucia (for some reason) because of the influence of the Andalucist lobby within UCD, but well, the process was a mess and at the end many pf regions were created artificially.

I don't know much about Revilla, but here's something I don't like about him, perhaps it's because he's a bit of a populist.
Logged
Velasco
andi
Junior Chimp
*****
Posts: 5,709
Western Sahara


WWW Show only this user's posts in this thread
« Reply #118 on: June 25, 2013, 09:04:35 PM »

     As I understand it, they initially intended to only apply the name of "autonomous community" to Galicia, Basque Country, and Catalonia, but that idea fell by the wayside when other regions decided that they wanted similar recognition. Considering the differing traditions of the different regions, I think it would be good to revisit the issue of recognizing those regions that are more culturally independent from Madrid than the norm.

Initially, the 1978 Constitution established the notion of a Spanish nation but simultaneously it was recognizing the existence in her bosom of nationalities and regions. Nevertheless, it didn't establish different types of regions or " autonomous communities ", simply it established different terms for autonomy, admitting self rule first for the regions which approved autonomy statutes in the 30s (II Republic): Catalonia, Basque Country and Galicia. Andalusia celebrated a plebiscite in 1980 to accede to the autonomy by the so called " fast route " ("vía rápida") and to be recognized also as " historical nationality "; alongside with the aforementioned three "historical" regions, it got autonomy before the rest of Spain. There was the possibility of certain 'asymmetry' giving more competences to the "historical" regions, if they demanded it. It was established a Constitutional Court which would act as a regulatory agent of the future decentralized state. Finally, the Constitution advocated for giving autonomy for all regions in the future.

As to decentralisation: An interesting and worthwhile target may be regional and local transport (especially the rail bound part). Inspired by the example of the French TER, German rail reform included transfer of local and regional lines (essentially everything that is not high-speed or freight-only) to the States, giving them full network ownership as well as authority to regulate (and typically also the duty to subsidise) local and regional traffic. This has lead to the reopening of many lines that had been closed in the 1980s, and, together with quality improvements pushed through on State level, resulted in steadily rising passenger numbers.
I am not sure if decentralising healthcare is a good idea. The supply side is fine (but isn't that already quite decentralised in Spain?). However, if you start to also decentralise the revenue side / financing mechanisms, you are potentially making things more complicated for larger companies and especially international investors, and that is not necessarily what Spain needs right now. 

From what I was trying to find out, a majority of regions have assumed railroad competences on the paper. Seemingly only Catalonia, the Basque Country, Valencia and Balearic Islands have assumed them in the practice, and only in the cases of the narrow-gauge railroads (FEVE) and suburban trains, but not railroads attached to the national network (RENFE), even when routes don't trespass regional limits.  These constraints are due to the "decrees of transfer" issued by the Spain's government. I agree on what it would be a great idea giving regions more competences to revitalize local lines, because it has been put a great emphasis in the construction of high-speed rails to the detriment of conventional railroad.

As for Healthcare, financing mechanisms are a terrible mess Tongue, I'll try to give an answer later on.
Logged
Velasco
andi
Junior Chimp
*****
Posts: 5,709
Western Sahara


WWW Show only this user's posts in this thread
« Reply #119 on: June 25, 2013, 10:11:56 PM »
« Edited: June 25, 2013, 10:13:28 PM by I Am Damo Suzuki »

Which is kind of my position. I am in theory a republican, but at the moment the status quo in regards to the monarchy is fine by me, probably make Juan Carlos abdicate and clean it up, but obviously, a Republic is still too much politicized (reds, commies, workers' paradise, if Franco raised his head, blah, blah, blah)

I said a Republic, not a 'People's Republic'. There are a lot of myths regarding our last Republican period, the Civil War and blah, blah, blah.

Well that was the idea. The whole 1977 democracy was designed to avoid the many many flaws of the 19th century liberal state and the 2nd Republic political processes. In fact even at the times of 1976's Ley de asociaciones politicas speech by Suarez (as Secretario General del Movimiento under Arias-Navarro) was unequivocal about 'a state that neither recognizes nor persecutes contrary political ideas, but rather ignores them altogether, would be too similar to the 19th century liberal state' Ofc liberal being a dirty word back then.

I'm aware of the difficulties and fears existing in that period. I only state that reform mechanisms are difficult and, since some time ago, several things might have been changed. If you remember, Zapatero proposed some light reforms (Senate, dynastic succession, etc.) which remained in the booth. I don't know if I must blame him or the polarized environment in Zapatero's legislatures (the Right was basically trolling since 2004).

Don't be afraid Tongue Secondly, I'm not a 'loyal UPyD supporter' and indeed I defend federalism, not the current messy system. But my main concern about decentralization is that many communities are one party regions (PSOE misrule in Andalucia, PP misrule in Valencia) and that will politicize education. Nevertheless, education is ok by me, as well as it is, to a lesser degree, healthcare. Healthcare is just too damn expensive to run at a regional level, except for big autonomies like Madrid, Catalonia or Andalucia. My main problem is that we have some regions that make no sense due to being too small (yes, I'm pointing at you, Cantabria, Asturias, La Rioja and perhaps Murcia) or too big (Andalucia).

In any case a small amount of recentralization is rational in economic aspects. For example, the recent Ley de unidad de mercado, which will force all CCAA to have same regulations for products and licensing. It's common sense, you can't have 17 different standards within a country for that.

A different system of regional equalization needs to be set up. The current one makes sense, from what I've read, Valencia gives money to the Vascongadas (just wanted to say it like that Tongue) when the Basques are one of the richest regions in Spain and all because of the silly fueros, an absolute feudal anachronism.

Also, I'm not a Spanish nationalist, in fact, I am not a fan of nationalism, although it seems as if being Catalan nationalist was more acceptable than Spanish (well, Franco and what not) but to me, it's as silly and as bad.

My apologies for that. You have coincidences with UPyD party line, but this doesn't make you a 'loyal supporter' (it wasn't a derogatory characterization, in any case). I didn't mean that you were a Spanish nationalist or something (sorry again), but I fear that some supporters of a certain re-centralization might be in that line (Wert's attempts on Educational reform, for example). By the way, and it's a great coincidence, today I read an article by Rosa Díez in El País where she states her views on the "state of the autonomies" and advocates for a Constitutional reform (here, she differs from you) to establish an 'egalitarian' federalist formula with 'closed' competences. I agree in some parts with her diagnosis, but when she reaches the question of peripheral nationalism... Well, I was never a fan of raising the speech in terms of "appeasement".

http://elpais.com/elpais/2013/06/24/opinion/1372091894_899657.html

(The article is in Spanish)

I think almost everyone in Spain is aware of the need of making a broad reform of the system. Some examples that you mention are clear signs of disfunctionality. On the other hand, I think subjects like educational policies shouldn't be exclusively on the government's (regional or central) hands. Indoctrination may come from both sides. I think it's more a question of making society participate in the design of the educational programs, and putting on experts' hands, rather than on the politicians', some questions like how we must teach History.

As for the anachronic fueros, my position right now is surprisingly close to the one that PSOE's Federal Executive stated recently: Concierto is not debatable, Cupo is revisable. 'Concierto económico' is the special fiscal regime in force in the Basque Country and Navarre. 'Cupo' is the amount of money that Basque and Navarre treasures give to the Spain's Exchequer. If you pretend to abolish the fiscal particularities in those northern regions, you'll probably have to face a revolt. Nearly all Basques and Navarrese are foralistas, including supporters of 'national' or 'non Basque' parties. I think it's more a question of pragmatism and common sense rather than an 'appeaser' attitude.

As for Revilla, he's a bit of a populist, but I find him friendly and harmless.

Logged
Associate Justice PiT
PiT (The Physicist)
Atlas Politician
Atlas Superstar
*****
Posts: 31,178
United States


Show only this user's posts in this thread
« Reply #120 on: June 26, 2013, 03:33:35 AM »

     As I understand it, they initially intended to only apply the name of "autonomous community" to Galicia, Basque Country, and Catalonia, but that idea fell by the wayside when other regions decided that they wanted similar recognition. Considering the differing traditions of the different regions, I think it would be good to revisit the issue of recognizing those regions that are more culturally independent from Madrid than the norm.

Initially, the 1978 Constitution established the notion of a Spanish nation but simultaneously it was recognizing the existence in her bosom of nationalities and regions. Nevertheless, it didn't establish different types of regions or " autonomous communities ", simply it established different terms for autonomy, admitting self rule first for the regions which approved autonomy statutes in the 30s (II Republic): Catalonia, Basque Country and Galicia. Andalusia celebrated a plebiscite in 1980 to accede to the autonomy by the so called " fast route " ("vía rápida") and to be recognized also as " historical nationality "; alongside with the aforementioned three "historical" regions, it got autonomy before the rest of Spain. There was the possibility of certain 'asymmetry' giving more competences to the "historical" regions, if they demanded it. It was established a Constitutional Court which would act as a regulatory agent of the future decentralized state. Finally, the Constitution advocated for giving autonomy for all regions in the future.

     I see, so it was always intended for the rest of Spain's regions to eventually join the original three autonomous communities. In that case, I am also curious to know: how decentralized would you say Spain's government actually is? I am not too knowledgeable about the matter, but it is something that really interests me.
Logged
Velasco
andi
Junior Chimp
*****
Posts: 5,709
Western Sahara


WWW Show only this user's posts in this thread
« Reply #121 on: June 30, 2013, 02:14:01 AM »

Sorry for the delay, PiT. I think Spain is highly decentralized nowadays, but the model needs to be redesigned because of some malfunctions. On one hand regions have tried to reproduce the structure of the central government in their territories, on the other hand the Spain's government mantains an administrative structure in areas where competences have been transferred. A clarification is necessary. Also, it's important to find the way of handling the differentiated identities in the periphery, which is complicated.
Logged
Velasco
andi
Junior Chimp
*****
Posts: 5,709
Western Sahara


WWW Show only this user's posts in this thread
« Reply #122 on: July 09, 2013, 09:57:23 AM »

Some maps of different Spanish parliamentary elections in Catalonia. There are four provincial circumscriptions: Barcelona, Tarragona, Girona and Lleida. There exists an administrative subdivision called comarca, which is a group of municipalities. In the Catalan Electoral Archive it's possible to check all results of the Spanish elections since 1977 at all levels (regional, provincial, comarcal and municipal).

Leading party in 1977-1982 elections



In the 1977 and 1979 there was a remarkable atomization, both in the global results and in the geographical distribution. In the 1977 elections CiU didn't exist. CDC ran in a coalition called Democratic Pact for Catalonia (PDPC) with Partit Socialista de Catalunya-Reagrupament (PSC-R), the National Front of Catalonia (FNC) and the Democratic Left of Catalonia (EDC). UDC ran in a coalition called Union of the Center and the Christian Democracy of Catalonia. In 1979 CDC and UDC joined in Convergence and Union (CiU). PSC-R merged with PSC-Congrés and PSOE into the Socialists' Party of Catalonia (PSC); EDC splitted in 1978 in two wings, one merged with CDC and other with ERC; FNC survived until 1982, running in coalition with ERC in the 1979 elections.

In 1977 PSC-PSOE won the elections in Catalonia with 28.55% of the vote, winning 15 seats. The Unified Socialist Party of Catalonia (PSUC), the PCE counterpart in Catalonia, came second with 18.31%, winning 8 seats. UCD (16.91%) and PDPC (16.88%) came behind, but winning more seats than PSUC (UCD 9, PDPC 11) due to malapportionment and the geographical distribution of their vote. UDC got 5.67% (2 seats); ERC and allies 4.72% (1 seat) and the Fraga's People's Alliance (AP) 3.55% (1 seat). 

By that time PSUC vote was highly concentrated in Barcelona and its industrial periphery (with highest peaks at Baix Llogregat and Vallès Occidental), although the party performed strongly in the Tarragona province (especially in Tarragonès and Montsià) and in interior comarcas like Segrià (includes Lleida city), Bages or Berguedà. PSUC got 7 seats in Barcelona (19.85%) and 1 in Tarragona (16.37%), but couldn't win seats in Lérida (12.21%) and Gerona (10.10%)

Vote for PSUC in 1977 (2.5% scale):



PSUC, which was living through strong internal tensions, sank in 1982, obtaining only 4.61% and 1 seat. The pro-Soviet Party of the Communists of Catalonia (PCC), splitted from PSUC in 1981, got 1.37% of the vote. However, in the following year's municipal elections, PCC won some mayoralties in the Barcelona metropolitan region.

A very different landscape. 2004, 2008 and 2011 General Elections:





Logged
Nanwe
Rookie
**
Posts: 219
Spain


Political Matrix
E: 2.06, S: -8.00

Show only this user's posts in this thread
« Reply #123 on: September 17, 2013, 10:06:59 AM »
« Edited: September 17, 2013, 10:10:57 AM by Nanwe »

Looking at those maps it seems pretty obvious how the collapse of the Spanish right in '82 (Fraga  and his rejection fo the political aspects of the Pactos de la Moncloa excluded him from the political process in Cataluña) made pretty much the whole Lérida to shift to the Catalonian right, instead of a españolista/constitucionalista one. From looking at 1977/79 results it seems UCD was also quite successful in rural Tarragona.

Is that some sort of old cultural divide between more pure Catalanism (as in Gerona) and Lérida and Tarragona that the latter more inclined to vote UCD? I know UCD avoided the españolista message that AP/PP used/s and indeed supported autonomy to a degree, but it's quite spectacular the collapse of the non-nationalist right in Lérida from '79 to '82, nonetheless.

PD: A weird question, do you know of electoral polls from 1981? I'm thinking of writing a mini-story where shortly before the Congreso de Mallorca (3rd UCD Congress) he decides to call new elections to strengthen the party (rally the flag effect). In theory, according to Gregorio Morán, he would have proceeded to form a government of coalition with PSOE as a junior partner (some sort of Italian 'trasformismo' à la Spanish) but he failed by little.
Logged
Velasco
andi
Junior Chimp
*****
Posts: 5,709
Western Sahara


WWW Show only this user's posts in this thread
« Reply #124 on: September 17, 2013, 02:19:28 PM »

Is that some sort of old cultural divide between more pure Catalanism (as in Gerona) and Lérida and Tarragona that the latter more inclined to vote UCD? I know UCD avoided the españolista message that AP/PP used/s and indeed supported autonomy to a degree, but it's quite spectacular the collapse of the non-nationalist right in Lérida from '79 to '82, nonetheless.

Perhaps the existence of Centristes de Catalunya (Centrists of Catalonia, CC), that was an UDC's split and made a coalition with UCD in the 1979 elections might explain the strength of UCD in some rural Catalan comarcas (counties).

CC was lead by Antón Cañellas, formerly the UDC leader. UDC was divided between Catalan nationalists and the Cañellas faction. The latter wanted to create a big centrist Catalan party that was the equivalent of the Bavarian CSU, whereas Adolfo Suárez's UCD would be the equivalent to the CDU in the rest of Spain. Cañellas was the CC-UCD candidate in the 1980 Catalan election. Finally Jordi Pujol and CiU became in the Catalan CSU, though there wasn't a CDU beyond the Ebro river (remember the 1986 election and the failure of Miquel Roca's project).

http://es.wikipedia.org/wiki/Centristes_de_Catalunya-UCD

I'll address the rest of your posts, here and in the JP Morgan's thread, later on (I need to take my time and now I'm in a hurry). I'll give a reply in a single post here, just to 'centralise' Wink
Logged
Pages: 1 2 3 4 [5] 6  
« previous next »
Jump to:  


Login with username, password and session length

Terms of Service - DMCA Agent and Policy - Privacy Policy and Cookies

Powered by SMF 1.1.21 | SMF © 2015, Simple Machines

Page created in 0.076 seconds with 12 queries.