Webb defends Confederate flag *UPDATE*

[Türkisblau]

You have to at least give Webb the fact that his words regarding the Confederate flag were much more thought provoking than a lot of the kneejerk "take it down!" that we've seen.

Yes, the issue is much more complicated than most on Atlas and in the political scene give it credit for atm.

[Mr. Morden]

Here's the Facebook post in question:

https://www.facebook.com/IHeardMyCountryCalling/posts/368319080024684

The comments seem to be overwhelmingly negative.

[Rockefeller GOP]

So basically Jim Webb is to the right of the Republican Party on the place of the Confederate flag in public and official situations. Terrific.

Maybe - and I know this is just ing crazy!!! - if people who are to the left of or at the least even with the Republican Party on EVERYTHING else (Wallace, the old Southern Democrats, Webb, etc.) support something like the Confederate flag or oppose something like civil rights ... We should stop referring to such stances as "conservative"?!

I mean, let's be real: you're all simply taking historical things that everyone agrees is good (or will someday in the case of the flag removal) and assigning the label "liberal" on those things and defining opposition to the "good" stance as "conservative."  Nothing like reaffirming your own ideology to yourself, LOL...

[RINO Tom]

Keeping up that fine tradition of the Southern Democrat, I see.

[publicunofficial]

So basically Jim Webb is to the right of the Republican Party on the place of the Confederate flag in public and official situations. Terrific.

Maybe - and I know this is just ing crazy!!! - if people who are to the left of or at the least even with the Republican Party on EVERYTHING else (Wallace, the old Southern Democrats, Webb, etc.) support something like the Confederate flag or oppose something like civil rights ... We should stop referring to such stances as "conservative"?!

I mean, let's be real: you're all simply taking historical things that everyone agrees is good (or will someday in the case of the flag removal) and assigning the label "liberal" on those things and defining opposition to the "good" stance as "conservative."  Nothing like reaffirming your own ideology to yourself, LOL...

Christ you're like Oldiesfreak but without the fun MLAATR obsession.

[RINO Tom]

So basically Jim Webb is to the right of the Republican Party on the place of the Confederate flag in public and official situations. Terrific.

Maybe - and I know this is just ing crazy!!! - if people who are to the left of or at the least even with the Republican Party on EVERYTHING else (Wallace, the old Southern Democrats, Webb, etc.) support something like the Confederate flag or oppose something like civil rights ... We should stop referring to such stances as "conservative"?!

I mean, let's be real: you're all simply taking historical things that everyone agrees is good (or will someday in the case of the flag removal) and assigning the label "liberal" on those things and defining opposition to the "good" stance as "conservative."  Nothing like reaffirming your own ideology to yourself, LOL...

Christ you're like Oldiesfreak but without the fun MLAATR obsession.

No offense, but he made a good point.  And all you did was insult him while saying nothing about the topic.

[Fuzzy Bear]

Webb is, indeed, more thoughtful on this issue than many.  He has written a book on the Scot-Irish in America, and while there is some controversy surrounding that book (entitled BORN FIGHTING), he has done research that is very telling.  One indisputable fact about the Scot-Irish in America is that they show up for America’s wars, and they showed up on both sides during the Civil War.

It is NOT the Confederate Flag that provoked Dylann Roof to do what he did; it was white supremacist ideology, which would exist if all of the symbols of the Confederacy were snuffed out decades ago.  Indeed, what most people believe to be the “Stars and Bars” is not the “X” design Confederate Battle Flag that most folks erroneously believe to be the flag of the Confederate States of America.  Dylann Roof’s racism caused him to become curious about the white cultures of South Africa (and its Apartheid) and Rhodesia (and its Color Bar); these things have nothing to do with the Confederacy.

Now I believe that State flags and emblems ought not have Confederate symbols of any kind on them.  This issue should have been addressed decades ago, even a century ago, but it wasn’t.  The role of the Confederate Battle Flag appearing in state flags has not been a continuous thing; most of that was showing solidarity with resistance to Civil Rights.  These should all have been gone down a long time ago.

But Webb made a salient point in that the flag in question in South Carolina is at a monument to the Confederate War Dead.  This, to me, is something else.  The young men that gave their lives fighting for the CSA weren’t all slaveowners, and some free blacks served in the Confederate Army as well.  These were people who viewed themselves as doing their duty, and it was not unusual in 1860 for a person to see loyalty to their state as paramount. 

I do not believe that the Confederate flag, and, particularly, the Confederate Battle Flag, should be taken down at war memorials and Confederate cemeteries.  There comes a point where such a gesture dishonors past (granted LONG past) devotion to duty and sacrifice, while doing nothing about the problem at hand, which is deeply held racist views by persons like Dylann Roof.  Let’s get the offensive symbol out of the state flags and state emblems, and state stuff that all folks share.  But let’s not use this occasion to disrespect war dead of long ago by creating new animosities.  The flag isn’t the problem, and I’m not sure any progress would REALLY be made if the flag were done away with in the next 15 minutes.

[JonathanSwift]

Webb is, indeed, more thoughtful on this issue than many.  He has written a book on the Scot-Irish in America, and while there is some controversy surrounding that book (entitled BORN FIGHTING), he has done research that is very telling.  One indisputable fact about the Scot-Irish in America is that they show up for America’s wars, and they showed up on both sides during the Civil War.

It is NOT the Confederate Flag that provoked Dylann Roof to do what he did; it was white supremacist ideology, which would exist if all of the symbols of the Confederacy were snuffed out decades ago.  Indeed, what most people believe to be the “Stars and Bars” is not the “X” design Confederate Battle Flag that most folks erroneously believe to be the flag of the Confederate States of America.  Dylann Roof’s racism caused him to become curious about the white cultures of South Africa (and its Apartheid) and Rhodesia (and its Color Bar); these things have nothing to do with the Confederacy.

Now I believe that State flags and emblems ought not have Confederate symbols of any kind on them.  This issue should have been addressed decades ago, even a century ago, but it wasn’t.  The role of the Confederate Battle Flag appearing in state flags has not been a continuous thing; most of that was showing solidarity with resistance to Civil Rights.  These should all have been gone down a long time ago.

But Webb made a salient point in that the flag in question in South Carolina is at a monument to the Confederate War Dead.  This, to me, is something else.  The young men that gave their lives fighting for the CSA weren’t all slaveowners, and some free blacks served in the Confederate Army as well.  These were people who viewed themselves as doing their duty, and it was not unusual in 1860 for a person to see loyalty to their state as paramount. 

I do not believe that the Confederate flag, and, particularly, the Confederate Battle Flag, should be taken down at war memorials and Confederate cemeteries.  There comes a point where such a gesture dishonors past (granted LONG past) devotion to duty and sacrifice, while doing nothing about the problem at hand, which is deeply held racist views by persons like Dylann Roof.  Let’s get the offensive symbol out of the state flags and state emblems, and state stuff that all folks share.  But let’s not use this occasion to disrespect war dead of long ago by creating new animosities.  The flag isn’t the problem, and I’m not sure any progress would REALLY be made if the flag were done away with in the next 15 minutes.

Good post. Well said.

[Famous Mortimer]

"It's not the flag of the Confederacy! It was just the flag of their army!"

Okay, so what? God, this is such a stupid argument.

[Donerail]

So basically Jim Webb is to the right of the Republican Party on the place of the Confederate flag in public and official situations. Terrific.

Maybe - and I know this is just ing crazy!!! - if people who are to the left of or at the least even with the Republican Party on EVERYTHING else (Wallace, the old Southern Democrats, Webb, etc.) support something like the Confederate flag or oppose something like civil rights ... We should stop referring to such stances as "conservative"?!

I mean, let's be real: you're all simply taking historical things that everyone agrees is good (or will someday in the case of the flag removal) and assigning the label "liberal" on those things and defining opposition to the "good" stance as "conservative."  Nothing like reaffirming your own ideology to yourself, LOL...

The definition of conservative involves holding to traditional attitudes and values and being averse to change. Clinging to traditional institutions - like the rebel flag or Jim Crow - is by definition a conservative stance. It's not necessarily a Republican one, but by definition it is conservatism.

[Fuzzy Bear]

"It's not the flag of the Confederacy! It was just the flag of their army!"

Okay, so what? God, this is such a stupid argument.

OK, here's your choice:  The Confederate flag stays at all monuments to the Confederate dead and at Confederate cemeteries.  In return, voter ID laws are eliminated and the Voting Rights Act is reinstated.  Is that a fair deal?  Does such a deal actually advance REAL civil rights? 

I know that this is hypothetical, but I do think priorities are a big out of whack here.  Frankly, I view giving up the Confederate flag as a poor consolation prize for losing the Voting Rights Act and the imposition of Voter ID laws (the new poll tax).

[Famous Mortimer]

"It's not the flag of the Confederacy! It was just the flag of their army!"

Okay, so what? God, this is such a stupid argument.

OK, here's your choice:  The Confederate flag stays at all monuments to the Confederate dead and at Confederate cemeteries.  In return, voter ID laws are eliminated and the Voting Rights Act is reinstated.  Is that a fair deal?  Does such a deal actually advance REAL civil rights? 

I know that this is hypothetical, but I do think priorities are a big out of whack here.  Frankly, I view giving up the Confederate flag as a poor consolation prize for losing the Voting Rights Act and the imposition of Voter ID laws (the new poll tax).

This is an even dumber argument.

"Hey, getting hit in the nuts is actually good because if you could get a million dollars for getting hit in the nuts, you would take it"

No one is proposing your hypothetical trade, nor will they.

[Fuzzy Bear]

"It's not the flag of the Confederacy! It was just the flag of their army!"

Okay, so what? God, this is such a stupid argument.

OK, here's your choice:  The Confederate flag stays at all monuments to the Confederate dead and at Confederate cemeteries.  In return, voter ID laws are eliminated and the Voting Rights Act is reinstated.  Is that a fair deal?  Does such a deal actually advance REAL civil rights? 

I know that this is hypothetical, but I do think priorities are a big out of whack here.  Frankly, I view giving up the Confederate flag as a poor consolation prize for losing the Voting Rights Act and the imposition of Voter ID laws (the new poll tax).

This is an even dumber argument.

"Hey, getting hit in the nuts is actually good because if you could get a million dollars for getting hit in the nuts, you would take it"

No one is proposing your hypothetical trade, nor will they.

I agree it's hypothetical.  And I don't think getting hit in the nuts is good, but getting a million dollars IS a good thing.

I've never been a fan of the Confederate flag.  I'm a native New Yorker.  I'm not one of these folks who think the Civil War was about something other than slavery, because if there had been no slavery, there would have been no Civil War.  No other "region" of the US has its own flag or symbols, and as Southern whites are often the first to criticize other groups immigrating to the USA for tying to keep their ethnic/national identity, I would suggest that the "X" flag is, just the same, a flag of a separate "nation", and, as Americans, we are either going to be "one nation, under God, indivisible" or we are not.  But the history of the 11 former Confederate states IS different from the history of the rest of America, and this has a lot of implications.

One Southern tradition that has been more devastating to equality than any other is the tradition of the Southern states in limiting voter participation with literacy tests, poll taxes, and general intimidation through its economic system.  Current voter ID laws are, in a real way, a new poll tax.  Overcriminalization of minor offenses in Southern states disproportionally disqualify black voters from voting, and this practice is aimed at blacks.  Reducing times for voting is a direct attack on getting the poor of both races in the South, causing them to miss work (and pay) to be able to vote (another new "poll tax").

This Confederate flag "victory" that is now seemingly in the grasp of "liberals" is no victory at all.  If Dylann Roof had done what he did in 2013, just after the Presidential election, there would be none of these discussions; much of this is to get the GOP Presidential candidates over a barrel to where they are forced to take an uncomfortable stand.  And that may be good politics, but it doesn't advance voting rights (which are far more important to defending the individual rights of blacks and the poor in the South) one iota.

So I don't really view recent events as a "victory".  Reinstating the voting rights act, ending racist redistricting, extending voting times; these things would be victories.  Winning on the Confederate flag issue makes it harder to win on the things that REALLY matter in terms of equality and voter participation.