Thousands of Thai call for ouster of PM Yingluck Shinawatra

[NewYorkExpress]

http://dawn.com/news/1058464/thousands-call-for-ouster-of-pm-yingluck-shinawatra

[Tetro Kornbluth]

Of course they are.

[Famous Mortimer]

Thousands call for ouster.

Millions will vote for her in elections.

[opebo]

Thousands call for ouster.

Millions will vote for her in elections.

That's certainly true, but... elections aren't the only route-to-power.

[Snowstalker Mk. II]

Why does Opebo support the Thai right? Are they friendlier to prostitution or something?

[Tetro Kornbluth]

Why does Opebo support the Thai right? Are they friendlier to prostitution or something?

Yes.

[I spent the winter writing songs about getting better]

It's a bit misleading to consider the opposition "right" and Thaksin's crew left. Thaksin's side is pretty nationalist/racist (see how much support the opposition gets amongst Muslims) and included some pretty awful people previously involved in military juntas.

[Antonio the Sixth]

Bad as the Thaksin clique might be, at least they aren't a bunch of despicable, reactionary pluto/aristocrats with a tendency toward military coups.

[opebo]

Bad as the Thaksin clique might be, at least they aren't a bunch of despicable, reactionary pluto/aristocrats with a tendency toward military coups.

BRTD's correct, Antoonio, it may sound strange, but Thaksin and crew are actually even worse about human rights and whatnot!  They aren't real leftists at all - they're right-wingers who have coopted a grassroots 'leftist' movement as part of their bid for power against the ancien regime.

(but yes, I'm a one-issue man - the only thing I mind is that democracy and populism are always anti-sex, since the majority of the people are either women or impotent men, and thus oppose women making money the easy way, or men having fun the easy way)

[Okay, maybe Mike Johnson is a competent parliamentarian.]

Folks who are 'anti-sex' by your metric are often pro-other things that people at advanced stages of moral development tend to value significantly more than convenient access to orgasms (or money, for that matter), so, you know, that's where the appeal of democracy and populism come in. But you knew that already.

I'm also pretty sure that the easiest way to have what you define as fun involves your hands, unless you don't have any in which case you have much more serious difficulties to contend with anyway.

[I spent the winter writing songs about getting better]

Bad as the Thaksin clique might be, at least they aren't a bunch of despicable, reactionary pluto/aristocrats with a tendency toward military coups.

No actually they are. Remember that Thaksin was the richest man in Thailand and owned basically all of the media, and ran a very corrupt patronage machine. And the last election before his ouster was boycotted by ALL opposition parties because of how much election fraud he was responsible for and was obviously planning in this instance. As far as military coups go Thaksin's party put this guy in power briefly: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Samak_Sundaravej And in regards to being reactionary, remember the party used to be called "Thais Love Thais" and has a lot of "Thailand is for Thais!" rhetoric that if you change the nationalities could easily come from Marine Le Pen, Geert Wilders or Jorg Haider.

And the Democrat Party has historically been the backbone of opposition to previous military regimes.

[Beet]

Bad as the Thaksin clique might be, at least they aren't a bunch of despicable, reactionary pluto/aristocrats with a tendency toward military coups.

No actually they are. Remember that Thaksin was the richest man in Thailand and owned basically all of the media, and ran a very corrupt patronage machine. And the last election before his ouster was boycotted by ALL opposition parties because of how much election fraud he was responsible for and was obviously planning in this instance. As far as military coups go Thaksin's party put this guy in power briefly: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Samak_Sundaravej And in regards to being reactionary, remember the party used to be called "Thais Love Thais" and has a lot of "Thailand is for Thais!" rhetoric that if you change the nationalities could easily come from Marine Le Pen, Geert Wilders or Jorg Haider.

And the Democrat Party has historically been the backbone of opposition to previous military regimes.

1. That wouldn't justify the use of a military coup in this situation, though. If the opposition wants power they should take it through elections, not a coup. I don't see how anyone who supports democracy could say otherwise.

2. Besides the name "Thai Rak Thai", were any of their policies actually xenophobic, though? According to wiki all I could find was their populist and ledt wing economic policies. I mean, if we are going by such superficialities, the fact that they are allied with a group called the Red Shirts proves that they are on the left because red represents socialism internationally.

3. The fact that they're against a monarchy should burnish their progressive credentials all by itself. In every country you can always tell which party is more progressive by looking at which is more anti monarchist. Also, the fact that Thaksin is rich is meaningless. I would be suspicious if a country's president claimed to be poor. FDR was rich. Doesn't prevent you from being an ally of the poor.

Edit: Oh yes, and before you say, "But their media influence/patronage" etc., (1) similar tactics never invalidated support for Hugo Chavez among left wingers, even though he put judges in jail, and (2) it still is better than having the country perennially ruled by the streets/military coups. Even the opposition in Venezuela seeks to win elections and you never hear about "other means of taking power "; such would be rightfully denounced.

[Famous Mortimer]

Ignoring economic policies and electoral strategies, at least Thanksin's people don't literally worship the stupid, corrupt royal family.

[opebo]

Folks who are 'anti-sex' by your metric are often pro-other things that people at advanced stages of moral development tend to value significantly more than convenient access to orgasms (or money, for that matter), so, you know, that's where the appeal of democracy and populism come in. But you knew that already.

That is not 'advanced', Nathan.  Its just arbitrary socialization... ridiculous to value it as 'better' or 'worse' than any other arrangement.

I'm also pretty sure that the easiest way to have what you define as fun involves your hands, unless you don't have any in which case you have much more serious difficulties to contend with anyway.

It is absurd to equate that with sexual intercourse.

[Antonio the Sixth]

shut up opebo

k? thx

[Tetro Kornbluth]

Say what you like about the tenets of Opeboism but at least it's an ethos.

[Okay, maybe Mike Johnson is a competent parliamentarian.]

Folks who are 'anti-sex' by your metric are often pro-other things that people at advanced stages of moral development tend to value significantly more than convenient access to orgasms (or money, for that matter), so, you know, that's where the appeal of democracy and populism come in. But you knew that already.

That is not 'advanced', Nathan.  Its just arbitrary socialization... ridiculous to value it as 'better' or 'worse' than any other arrangement.

See, you're saying that because you're stuck in a type of moral calculus that's most common among small children.

You must be logged in to read this quote.

It is absurd to equate that with sexual intercourse.
[/quote]

It's also absurd--although maybe on a different level, I don't know--to equate soliciting a prostitute with normal sex, so you started it.

______

As far as the main subject of the thread goes, neither main side of the Thai political divide seems that great, in all honesty. I once knew a foreign exchange student who was an ardent Democrat Party and royal family supporter and she was able to explain her position pretty well in a way that didn't sound totally unreasonable. She certainly made it sound better than opebo does.

[I spent the winter writing songs about getting better]

Just take a look at election results in southern Thailand if you want to see the evidence of this being a nationalist and xenophobic movement. Unsurprisingly the Thaksinites aren't too popular with Muslims. That's not coincidental. As far as the King goes, while it's easy to rail against aristocrats, he doesn't seem like that bad of a guy. He worked to topple military regimes in the 70s and at one point opened up the gates of the Royal Palace to give refuge to student protesters being slaughtered by the military. I would take him any day over a thug like Samak.

Now I agree that military coups are not the right way to do things. But when you consider the Thaksinites' main way of obtaining power is widespread election fraud (hence the 2006 boycott and why earlier incarnations of the party were banned) it's not like you can hold them up as defenders of democracy either.

[opebo]

Folks who are 'anti-sex' by your metric are often pro-other things that people at advanced stages of moral development tend to value significantly more than convenient access to orgasms (or money, for that matter), so, you know, that's where the appeal of democracy and populism come in. But you knew that already.

That is not 'advanced', Nathan.  Its just arbitrary socialization... ridiculous to value it as 'better' or 'worse' than any other arrangement.

See, you're saying that because you're stuck in a type of moral calculus that's most common among small children.

You precisely make my point - socialization.  Its just nonsense you're swallowing during the indoctrination from childhood to adult-cog-in-the-machine-hood, Nathan.

You must be logged in to read this quote.

It is absurd to equate that with sexual intercourse.

It's also absurd--although maybe on a different level, I don't know--to equate soliciting a prostitute with normal sex, so you started it.[/quote]

No, it is precisely the same act, Nathan.  The 'different' part comes only afterward, when you pay.  Do you consider a meal 'not real food' when eaten in a restaurant?

As far as the main subject of the thread goes, neither main side of the Thai political divide seems that great, in all honesty. I once knew a foreign exchange student who was an ardent Democrat Party and royal family supporter and she was able to explain her position pretty well in a way that didn't sound totally unreasonable. She certainly made it sound better than opebo does.

I'm quite sure my analysis is more honest, however.

[Okay, maybe Mike Johnson is a competent parliamentarian.]

Folks who are 'anti-sex' by your metric are often pro-other things that people at advanced stages of moral development tend to value significantly more than convenient access to orgasms (or money, for that matter), so, you know, that's where the appeal of democracy and populism come in. But you knew that already.

That is not 'advanced', Nathan.  Its just arbitrary socialization... ridiculous to value it as 'better' or 'worse' than any other arrangement.

See, you're saying that because you're stuck in a type of moral calculus that's most common among small children.

You precisely make my point - socialization.  Its just nonsense you're swallowing during the indoctrination from childhood to adult-cog-in-the-machine-hood, Nathan.

What's funny about this accusation is that your way of thinking is probably closer to the mythical 'average person's' than mine is in a lot of ways. Most of the 'indoctrination' that I experience in my daily life would if I succumbed to it make my way of thinking more similar to yours, not less.

You must be logged in to read this quote.

It is absurd to equate that with sexual intercourse.
[/quote]

It's also absurd--although maybe on a different level, I don't know--to equate soliciting a prostitute with normal sex, so you started it.[/quote]

No, it is precisely the same act, Nathan.[/quote]

Acts have intents and motives and contexts.

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Of course I don't, but I do consider women different from food.

You must be logged in to read this quote.

I'm quite sure my analysis is more honest, however.
[/quote]

From your perspective of course it is. From her perspective of course hers was. (She was from Nonthaburi Province, by the way, if that means anything to you.)

[Mopsus]

I feel that it would do us all some measure of good to bear in mind that "morality" and "pleasure-seeking" are equally unsophisticated means of interpreting the world, and one really should not feel superior for preferring one or the other: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Eight-circuit_model_of_consciousness

[jaichind]

No actually they are. Remember that Thaksin was the richest man in Thailand and owned basically all of the media, and ran a very corrupt patronage machine. And the last election before his ouster was boycotted by ALL opposition parties because of how much election fraud he was responsible for and was obviously planning in this instance. As far as military coups go Thaksin's party put this guy in power briefly: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Samak_Sundaravej And in regards to being reactionary, remember the party used to be called "Thais Love Thais" and has a lot of "Thailand is for Thais!" rhetoric that if you change the nationalities could easily come from Marine Le Pen, Geert Wilders or Jorg Haider.

And the Democrat Party has historically been the backbone of opposition to previous military regimes.

I agree that the opposition boycotted the election in 2006 but mainly because they knew they would lose and their claim that Thaksin lost the support of the general population would show up to be false.  Even when the opposition were in the fray, Thaksin parties won landslides in 2001 2005 and 2011.  Even in 2007 the pro-Thaksin PPP won although not with an absolute majority.  The fact is the Thaksin machine is very effective a Clientelism regime in the rural hinderlands of Northern Thailand where the majority of the population lives.  Fraud is really not a huge fact in the various Thaksin victories.

Samak Sundaravej was picked to lead the Thaksin PPP in 2007 mostly as a compromise to the royalist camp that Samak Sundaravej who has a history of supporting pro-royalist causes but since joined up with Thaksin can bridge the gap between the two political blocks.

[opebo]

Nice summary, jaichind.  Democracy has certainly been a disaster for Thailand

[jaichind]

Nice summary, jaichind.  Democracy has certainly been a disaster for Thailand

I am actually pretty impressed at Thailand's economic progress since 2005 despite such great political turmoil.  Imagine what would have taken place with political stability.  The fact that Bank of Thailand is mostly insulated from political changes I suspect is a major reason for this.

[Famous Mortimer]

Yeah, there's no serious evidence of Thaksin electoral fraud.