Which of these two countries is more liveable?

[Blue3]

I view unchecked capitalism as less malevolent than unchecked religion.

I believe the same... but when I actually read through the descriptions of each, especially the hellish environmental landscape of Aynrandland, there's no way I could pick it.

At least with Jesusland there's the chance that, with the high levels of education especially, it would eventually secularize on some personal/social freedoms (especially those relating to sex).

With Aynrandland, the ecosystem is dead and the landscape is hellish, and the people are ignorant masses of sickly mutated degenerates used basically as slave labor.

[Mehmentum]

It's funny, because when I first saw the 2 countries' names, I thought I'd lean more towards Aynrandland, but after reading the descriptions it's more Jesusland. Though both would be oppressive places to live in.

Exactly this.  In fact its not even a contest after reading the descriptions.

[Amish]

I'll take corporate oligarchy over theocratic despotism any day.

[Kaine for Senate '18]

Definitely Jesusland

[John Dibble]

Jesusland would be a socially backwards country full of narrow-minded, intolerant people, and no doubt that many will suffer under it. But most would get by, and though their lives would be dull and oppressing, they would be livable.

Anyrandland, on the other hand, perfectly fits the description of hell. No such society could possibly remain sustainable more than a few decades. It would either collapse under a massive revolution or just self-annihilate. Anyone who chooses it has his values seriously f**ked up.

mhmmm... people who don't want to live in a place where their sexual orientation is outlawed "have f**ked up values"...

Let's not forget their treatment of women - many women wouldn't want to live in such a place. It's a feminist's nightmare.

Would the gays and women of the immense anyrandlandian underclass be much better off? I admit that I can't really judge, but I assume I'd rather be forced to hide my sexuality or be confined to domestic life than starving or dying from polluted air/water.

It depends on what you mean by 'better off'. Economically? Maybe, maybe not - it's not everyone is starving to death in Aynrandland, but the poor are pretty screwed there. Death from pollution wouldn't be instant, though I imagine it would shave a few years off of one's lifespan. It comes down to values I guess. Does the individual in question put more value into economic stability or personal freedom and opportunity?

[PJ]

Jesusland. I am socially liberal, but the issues that are banned don't neccessarily affect me. Just because gay marriage is legal, it doesn't mean that I wanna live in Donald Trump land. I also think that a lot of previous posts are correct when they say that Jesusland would eventually become secular.

[H. Ross Peron]

Jesusland. It has some real-world basis in being an extreme version of Chile or Ireland or even the US in the '50s.

[Starbucks Union Thug HokeyPuck]

I'll say AynRandLand for another reason.  After religion is destroyed, greed by and large will be destroyed.  Most people are naturally benevolent, they need religion/superstition/junk science to feel they have a superior standing than others and therefore justify their greed.  Societies in which religion is powerful breed this type of thought.  

Yes, forced secularist countries like the Communists established didn't work, but that's because they forced the atheism upon people.  That doesn't work because it's a slap to the face of free will.  

AynRandLand is terrible because the lack of religion will naturally result in a society that moves away from unchecked capitalism, but the Rand ideology will dictate that we can't move towards collectivism EVEN IF WE WANT TO.  

To illustrate: This picture is no coincidence, whether or not the faithful would like to believe otherwise.

http://www.huffingtonpost.com/2013/05/01/homeless-man-tests-kindness-religions-atheists-money_n_3189871.html

[Antonio the Sixth]

I'll say AynRandLand for another reason.  After religion is destroyed, greed by and large will be destroyed.  Most people are naturally benevolent, they need religion/superstition/junk science to feel they have a superior standing than others and therefore justify their greed.  Societies in which religion is powerful breed this type of thought.

Certainly there is a form of correlation between the social control exerted by religion and the lack of governmental action in favor of social justice... but this is just utterly ridiculous.

[SUSAN CRUSHBONE]

After religion is destroyed, greed by and large will be destroyed.  Most people are naturally benevolent, they need religion/superstition/junk science to feel they have a superior standing than others and therefore justify their greed.

This is backwards, of course. People are naturally self-centred and need society to teach them otherwise.

You must be logged in to read this quote.

For an atheist, you sure don't seem to put much stock in scientifically conducted research.

[Starbucks Union Thug HokeyPuck]

After religion is destroyed, greed by and large will be destroyed.  Most people are naturally benevolent, they need religion/superstition/junk science to feel they have a superior standing than others and therefore justify their greed.

This is backwards, of course. People are naturally self-centred and need society to teach them otherwise.

Plenty aren't. 

You must be logged in to read this quote.

For an atheist, you sure don't seem to put much stock in scientifically conducted research.

What scientifically conducted research?

[DC Al Fine]

After religion is destroyed, greed by and large will be destroyed.  Most people are naturally benevolent, they need religion/superstition/junk science to feel they have a superior standing than others and therefore justify their greed.

This is backwards, of course. People are naturally self-centred and need society to teach them otherwise.

Plenty aren't. 

You must be logged in to read this quote.

For an atheist, you sure don't seem to put much stock in scientifically conducted research.

What scientifically conducted research?

The most religious Americans actually give more money to secular causes than do secular Americans.

You must be logged in to read this quote.

[Blue3]

Religion helps equalize people, and helps people become more charitable... the person a few posts above has it completely backwards.

[Starbucks Union Thug HokeyPuck]

After religion is destroyed, greed by and large will be destroyed.  Most people are naturally benevolent, they need religion/superstition/junk science to feel they have a superior standing than others and therefore justify their greed.

This is backwards, of course. People are naturally self-centred and need society to teach them otherwise.

Plenty aren't.  

You must be logged in to read this quote.

For an atheist, you sure don't seem to put much stock in scientifically conducted research.

What scientifically conducted research?

The most religious Americans actually give more money to secular causes than do secular Americans.

You must be logged in to read this quote.

And how many "secular" Americans are there?  

Ehhh... go buy your way into heaven/do it because you are told if you like, whether you like it or not that's what guides the good deeds of most religious people.  If the ends justify the means, good for you.  I don't agree.

I just don't understand the complete lack of equality in the matter.  The religiouses are allowed to advertise their belief system as the humanity's salvation... but us atheists aren't allowed to do the same?  I genuinely believe atheism/agnosticism/secularism is what will save humanity.  That's why I believe in it so strongly.  

More bigotry against atheists from the Atlas, but that's to be expected.  Every minority has to deal with BS. 

[Starbucks Union Thug HokeyPuck]

Religion helps equalize people, and helps people become more charitable... the person a few posts above has it completely backwards.

LOL!  I won't entertain anything that has the words "religion" and "help" in the same sentence... much less "religion" and "equalize".  Yea... when I think equality I think religion. 

[DC Al Fine]

After religion is destroyed, greed by and large will be destroyed.  Most people are naturally benevolent, they need religion/superstition/junk science to feel they have a superior standing than others and therefore justify their greed.

This is backwards, of course. People are naturally self-centred and need society to teach them otherwise.

Plenty aren't.  

You must be logged in to read this quote.

For an atheist, you sure don't seem to put much stock in scientifically conducted research.

What scientifically conducted research?

The most religious Americans actually give more money to secular causes than do secular Americans.

You must be logged in to read this quote.

And how many "secular" Americans are there?

If you had actually bothered to read the article or the quote I provided, you would have noticed that the authors of the study divided the sample into quintiles from least to most religious. That means the secular and religious samples compared are equal size

Ehhh... go buy your way into heaven/do it because you are told if you like, whether you like it or not that's what guides the good deeds of most religious people.  If the ends justify the means, good for you.  I don't agree.

Unfounded assertion is unfounded

I just don't understand the complete lack of equality in the matter.  The religiouses are allowed to advertise their belief system as the humanity's salvation... but us atheists aren't allowed to do the same?

Nonsense. You're allowed to defend atheism and have done so on many occasions...poorly.

 I genuinely believe atheism/agnosticism/secularism is what will save humanity.  That's why I believe in it so strongly.  

A sound and coherent argument if there ever was one.

More bigotry against atheists from the Atlas, but that's to be expected.  Every minority has to deal with BS. 

No. You make unfounded and bigoted assertions against religion and when someone presens contrary evidence you launch into hysterics about some persecution of atheists that only exists in your head.

Religion helps equalize people, and helps people become more charitable... the person a few posts above has it completely backwards.

LOL!  I won't entertain anything that has the words "religion" and "help" in the same sentence... much less "religion" and "equalize".  Yea... when I think equality I think religion. 

Ladies and gentleman. The open minded atheist!

[Antonio the Sixth]

After religion is destroyed, greed by and large will be destroyed.  Most people are naturally benevolent, they need religion/superstition/junk science to feel they have a superior standing than others and therefore justify their greed.

This is backwards, of course. People are naturally self-centred and need society to teach them otherwise.

Plenty aren't.  

You must be logged in to read this quote.

For an atheist, you sure don't seem to put much stock in scientifically conducted research.

What scientifically conducted research?

The most religious Americans actually give more money to secular causes than do secular Americans.

You must be logged in to read this quote.

And how many "secular" Americans are there?  

Ehhh... go buy your way into heaven/do it because you are told if you like, whether you like it or not that's what guides the good deeds of most religious people.  If the ends justify the means, good for you.  I don't agree.

I just don't understand the complete lack of equality in the matter.  The religiouses are allowed to advertise their belief system as the humanity's salvation... but us atheists aren't allowed to do the same?  I genuinely believe atheism/agnosticism/secularism is what will save humanity.  That's why I believe in it so strongly.  

More bigotry against atheists from the Atlas, but that's to be expected.  Every minority has to deal with BS. 

...

what is this i don't even

[H.E. VOLODYMYR ZELENKSYY]

Dammit, Hockey, I've already had to lower my opinion of Snowguy a tad, I don't want it to happen to you!

[Boris]

Jesusland sounds vaguely what the Netherlands might look like if those Dutch Calvinist parties were to somehow gain a majority in Parliament.

[Mad Deadly Worldwide Communist Gangster Computer God]

Aren't religious (or non-religious) worldviews suppose to be a light that help guides one's morals and not merely an identity or an accessory?  Because this thread is reducing them to just that.

HockeyDude, you're a smart guy.  Frankly, I'm surprised at you.  I'm also disgusted at the person who conducted that experiment for making people compete to give cash all for the sake of image.

[Mechaman]

I'll say AynRandLand for another reason.  After religion is destroyed, greed by and large will be destroyed.  Most people are naturally benevolent, they need religion/superstition/junk science to feel they have a superior standing than others and therefore justify their greed.  Societies in which religion is powerful breed this type of thought.  

Yes, forced secularist countries like the Communists established didn't work, but that's because they forced the atheism upon people.  That doesn't work because it's a slap to the face of free will.  

AynRandLand is terrible because the lack of religion will naturally result in a society that moves away from unchecked capitalism, but the Rand ideology will dictate that we can't move towards collectivism EVEN IF WE WANT TO.  

To illustrate: This picture is no coincidence, whether or not the faithful would like to believe otherwise.

http://www.huffingtonpost.com/2013/05/01/homeless-man-tests-kindness-religions-atheists-money_n_3189871.html

One guy doing a random image conscious experiment and a Huffington Post article?

Wow, you just swayed me HockeyDude!  Religion has no purpose and is evil!  Evil!  Atheists are truly the most generous people ever because of one guy sitting on a gym bag (?) and some bored alcoholic popular trends writer at Huffington Post!

This is truly remarkable quality.  Post of the Year nominee!

[Mechaman]

Jesusland would be a socially backwards country full of narrow-minded, intolerant people, and no doubt that many will suffer under it. But most would get by, and though their lives would be dull and oppressing, they would be livable.

Anyrandland, on the other hand, perfectly fits the description of hell. No such society could possibly remain sustainable more than a few decades. It would either collapse under a massive revolution or just self-annihilate. Anyone who chooses it has his values seriously f**ked up.

Right on spot.

[Mad Deadly Worldwide Communist Gangster Computer God]

On a side note, am I the only one who noticed the guy doesn't know how to spell 'spiritual' or 'Buddhist?'

[Oak Hills]

Guys, I'm pretty sure HockeyDude is being intentionally absurd just to mock religions' claims of being the savior of humanity. Methinks he doesn't really mean everything he's saying.

[Starbucks Union Thug HokeyPuck]

After careful thought; I do not think atheism will largely destroy greed.  And I'm going to cool it on religion, a little.  I got riled up the past few days about it.  Do I think religion is good?  No.  Can it have some positive effects?  Probably.  That's as far as I'm going on it, though.