Israel to Refugees: Go Back to Africa or Go to Prison

[ag]

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https://www.washingtonpost.com/world/middle_east/toughening-its-stance-toward-migrants-israel-pushes-africans-to-leave/2015/05/14/e1637bce-f350-11e4-bca5-21b51bbdf93e_story.html

Israel is the country most active in the fight against the flood of 3rd world migrants who would like to flood every 1st world country, we can learn a lot from what they do, and how it works out.

Amazing that American "conservatives" fall all over themselves to "support Israel" yet believe having similar policies to this in the U.S. is unthinkable.

Yeah, Israel has always been good in fighting the Untermenschen. They sure know how the eastern hordes have to be dealt with. Had great teachers, you know.

I really have to object to those guys calling themselves Jewish, though.

[ag]

I notice that I have been reported for "anti-semitism". Not only I am a Jew, but, if anything, it is the original post that is fundamentally anti-semitic. I guess, I should be reporting that one, should I?

[ag]

I really have to object to you calling yourself Jewish. I wouldn't count you in a minyan, but then again, you'd never go to (legitimate) shul anyway, so it doesn't really matter.

Well, I would not go to any shul, legitimate or otherwise: I do not believe in god Clearly, we deny each other's Jewishness. Fine by me.

[ag]

A big chunk of my family was killed by nazis,

My grandfather was born in Uman. Ever heard of that little town? His grandma had a dozen kids. Two had moved to Moscow before the war. The rest, and their entire families, were wiped out. On the other side of the family we had quite a few relatives in Alitus. The town was occupied on June 22, 1941: the first day of the German invasion. After the war no trace could be found. All of us had relatives killed by the Nazis: you do not have a monopoly there. This is precisely why I find the original post so disgusting.

"Eastern hordes", my ass.

[ag]

(I'll even stand with ag if someone tells him to "go back to Ukraine", like yesterday)

I should mention, that I am not from Ukraine and have only been in Ukraine for, may be, a total of couple of months in my life, as a tourist. Last time was back in 1989.  And the guy told me to go back to the "Ukraine thread", not to Ukraine

In any case you do not have to "stand by me". I am perfectly capable of standing alone.

[ag]

and literally nobody can legitimately call Israeli Jews nazis for defending themselves in order for the very same thing not to happen again.

I thought the discussion here was about the treatment of migrants, not of the Palestinian thread. Are the poor African migrants the ones "threatening Israel" and leading "to the same thing happening again"?

Frankly, if this is not a carbon copy of the Nazi rhetoric about the Jews, I do not know what is.

[ag]

I should be honest. I am at a point of exploding. Perhaps, indeed, I should confine myself to the news threads about Sri Lanka, Bihar, Guatemala, etc. My capacity of talking with "white people" is, probably, at its limit.

The nakedness of xenophobia that has been swamping these boards is extremely dispiriting. I used to believe that, indeed, after the Holocaust of the last World War something like this would never be possible again, that, at least, the "civilized West" got immunized against a repetition. Alas, the immunity seems nearly gone. I am increasingly convinced, that we will have to live it again in our time. And a lot of you guys will be later saying that "you did not know" and "you never imagined". Unfortunately, I do not believe in god you'd have to respond to.

[ag]

OTOH, the chances of ag's grandchildren being Jewish is about as likely as you voting for Meretz/Hadash/non-terribles so it's not like he matters that much anyway in the long-term.

Well, at least by traditional definitions, my children are more Jewish than myself And they are girls Every night I wish them "a gute nakht, shlof gezund" and hear back "a dank" (admittedly, this is a substantial chunk of Yiddish I can produce, but still). On my book shelves there is a complete collection of Sholom Aleykhem (in Russian, alas). More importantly, of course, I wear no uniform and have no desire to put one on. Hopefully, there will never be an ispravnik in my family: but only the rootless cosmopolitans, as the late SOB used to call us.

That last, in fact, is what, long-term matters a lot more than whether they call themselves Jews.

[ag]

a) You know nothing about human nature
b) You do not understand rootless cosmopolitanism. People only "choose" to be rootless cosompolitans when they have no other choice. Nonharedi Jews today have two options: assimilation and "nationation". Hence there will be no "rootless cosmopolitanism" for the Jews anytime soon.

I stand by my previous statement of course. Wishing your children goodnight in Yiddish may be sweet, but sustain a people it does not do.

I, obviously, have a choice. I chose to live in Mexico: could have chosen, say, Australia, or Turkey. And I choose not to care about whatever the abstraction you call the people. If my daughter marries a Nigerian and moves to China, I will be perfectly happy. If she starts talking about "preserving the people", I will be wondering where I failed.

When I was a kid, I had my own nationalist stage. I would pester my grandpa with this Jewish people stuff. And he, the last man in the family still to be able to converse Yiddish, would always respond: "I am an internationalist". He was a much wiser man than I will ever be.

For me Jewishness is in the rootlessness. I identify with others, whose families pass through countries and nations without taking a root.

[ag]

For me Jewishness is in the rootlessness. I identify with others, whose families pass through countries and nations without taking a root.

So you identify Jewishness with a strategy that has a 1,900 year success rate at leading to persecution and ethnic cleansing? How delightful.

Well, you know full well that without that strategy there would have been no Jews for the last 1500 years

It is not strategy in my case. It is my way of life. And you, it seems, justify persecution and ethnic cleansing as directed towards me, personally.

[ag]

For me Jewishness is in the rootlessness. I identify with others, whose families pass through countries and nations without taking a root.

You have made that clear numerous times, but it makes you an anomaly among modern Jews. Most people prefer to have a home land.

I am Mexican. Homeland enough for me.

[ag]

A big chunk of my family was killed by nazis,

My grandfather was born in Uman. Ever heard of that little town? His grandma had a dozen kids. Two had moved to Moscow before the war. The rest, and their entire families, were wiped out. On the other side of the family we had quite a few relatives in Alitus. The town was occupied on June 22, 1941: the first day of the German invasion. After the war no trace could be found. All of us had relatives killed by the Nazis: you do not have a monopoly there. This is precisely why I find the original post so disgusting.

"Eastern hordes", my ass.

You clearly consider this so problematic that you think this should happen again to our people. That doesn't sound logical.

It is you, not me, who is advocating the worldview, that will, I am afraid, in our time lead to a new Auschwitz. Of course, you think that, somehow, you will be on the outside of the crematorium. Everything may be logical in your worldview. But nevertheless, disgusting.

[ag]

You were the one who pointed at the "strange" connotation of his comment, not I. I only replied to you. Please at least try to stay honest.

There, for once, I was just having fun

[ag]

I'm not standing with you because I think you're not capable of standing alone, and I'm certainly not standing with you because I would like you (frankly, I really don't), but because it's my duty as a Jew to stand with another Jew if he is attacked for his Jewishness, even if that's not entirely sure. Ahavat Yisrael comes first. Of course, that is a major difference between the two of us.

Please, find another place to stand. Trust me, yo are a very undesirable company.

[ag]

Well, your hatred of Israel (or at least your full rejection of this country, to prevent an unnecessary debate on that) doesn't seem to be based on its "treatment of migrants". Frankly, it seems to me like a very emotional reaction. Amnesty International recently condemned the Netherlands for mistreating asylum seekers. (Of course, this is not all over the news...) Would you compare the Dutch to nazis as well? I don't think so.

I do not hate Israel. I merely object to the nation of ispravniks calling itself a Jewish state.

If you watched me on these boards, you would know that I routinely "compare" many people to Nazis (well, compare might not be the word - consider would work better) Ask our Austrian friends here Hey, I even have been in similar altercations with the Danish and the Swedes over the years. Usually, precisely, on the treatment of migrants. The dutch? I guess, you are the only Dutch avatar that decided to talk on the issue, but if there were another one around here, I would never hesitate

[ag]

I think I would be able to feel at home in so many countries, provided that there is a Jewish community, and one could call that "geographical rootlessness". If you would just be talking about geography, then I don't even disagree with you, even though we belong in Israel: that's home. However, your notion of general "rootlessness" seems to be based on an incorrect understanding of Jewish history. If we would truly be rootless, then the whole concept of a Jewish people wouldn't even exist anymore. On the contrary, we are the people most rooted in our history and in our tradition. That is not even a value judgment, even though I think that most people who understand this will also be inclined to value Jewish tradition and religion. For instance, one of my best friends is a staunch atheist and doesn't seem to keep any mitzvot, but it doesn't really matter to me, because he understands what it means to be a Jew. You just don't. I pity you for that. Peace be upon you.

I do not need a community: an atheist needs no minyan

We disagree on what Jewishness is, as I said. For me, Jewishness is in being an odd minority. A Slavic name in Germany, a German name in Russia. In Israel it is the Arabs who are the Jews

We disagree on the meaning of the Jewish history. You object to pogroms only because the pogromschiks were killing (those you consider) Jews. I object to the pogroms, because I do not like when they are killing people. You are happy that our fellow-tribesmen have managed to create an imitation of the old Tsar's empire (wholesale, the Pale included), but with themselves as the Russians.  I find no attraction in that. You still hanker for that old contract with god, and search for mythical past: for me the history started with the ancestors I can trace in the shtetl and continues in the dying echo of Yiddish. When it is gone, the Jews will not be gone, even if they call upon the Allah, when fleeing from persecution from the magendovid-wearing gentiles. Do not pity me, I am content

[ag]

and most importantly, this statement is pretty disturbing

Was meant to be

[ag]

I only care about people's intentions. If you're good to me, I'll be good to you.

You know the old joke? About "kill the Turk - and take a rest for a bit?"

[ag]

A big chunk of my family was killed by nazis,

My grandfather was born in Uman. Ever heard of that little town? His grandma had a dozen kids. Two had moved to Moscow before the war. The rest, and their entire families, were wiped out. On the other side of the family we had quite a few relatives in Alitus. The town was occupied on June 22, 1941: the first day of the German invasion. After the war no trace could be found. All of us had relatives killed by the Nazis: you do not have a monopoly there. This is precisely why I find the original post so disgusting.

"Eastern hordes", my ass.

You clearly consider this so problematic that you think this should happen again to our people. That doesn't sound logical.

Happily pointing out another baseless accusation for those who would want to report me for anti-semitism again.

[ag]

You are literally crazy, your worldview is literally crazy, and I'm not going to take the effort to reply to your hogwash once again. I'm going to put you on ignore because your baseless accusations go too far, and I'm sure you will not regret that I'll be doing so. Goodbye.

Stop feeding the troll (even if it's a silly goyishe troll).

Not merely a troll, but a goyishe troll. Nice one

[ag]

You are literally crazy, your worldview is literally crazy, and I'm not going to take the effort to reply to your hogwash once again. I'm going to put you on ignore because your baseless accusations go too far, and I'm sure you will not regret that I'll be doing so. Goodbye.

Stop feeding the troll (even if it's a silly goyishe troll).

Not merely a troll, but a goyishe troll. Nice one

I mean truth be told I think you're both silly goyishe trolls, but the difference is you're a silly goyishe troll that solves himself.

Properly, it sould be a mishigine goyische troll

At least one Israeli thread which develops into a pidgin-yiddish discussion

[ag]

Meshugga Goyishe Troll is the way I learned it. Or if we want actual Yiddish, משוגע גויישע טראָול. On the other hand, meshugga is not exactly what I was going for.

Yiddish is a Germanic language, it has adjectives.

I am illiterate, though

[ag]

You deserve a medal for your posts here ag, you've summed up exactly how I feel about Israel and my personal, complicated relationship with my own Jewry.

Thanks!

[ag]

You deserve a medal for your posts here ag, you've summed up exactly how I feel about Israel and my personal, complicated relationship with my own Jewry.

Just out of curiosity what is your relationship with your Judaism (not Jewry, that's a collective noun), and what makes it complicated?

Well, all of the controversy seems to come from that nasty little country that I have no connection to yet am somehow expected to have unquestionable loyalty to by many.

You're strawmanning, but more importantly you basically admitted you don't have a relationship with Judaism.

It is a different relationship from yours, most definitely.

[ag]

You must be logged in to read this quote.

You don't seem to understand that I myself, as a Jew in a big European city (which is not the same as in America), am forced to be in the minority. Talk about "privilege"? What "privilege" do I have by not being able to walk through my own multicultural, poor neighborhood with a yarmulke, or with my necklace with a magen david, without the chance of being harassed by groups of teenage guys hanging around, without feeling self-conscious all the time? That I don't notice people's strange, often hostile looks when I do wear my necklace or my kippa outside my neighborhood? And I'm quite a tough, strong guy, while many in my community aren't. Not complaining about this, just pointing out some basic facts.

Obviously I understand the urge many Jews have to show solidarity with other people who are (deemed) oppressed. And I'll stand by other oppressed people, provided that they don't hate me for who I am. But I get the impression some people think everything is A-OK with Jews now, and we can "move on to other oppressed groups" or something like that. That's not the case. Israel is continuously under attack: Hamas' anti-Semitism is not something that could have targeted any nation, it's a typical anti-Jewish thing, just the same as when the nazis wanted to wipe us out. Meanwhile, the situation in Europe is becoming insufferable for many Jews - just look at the aliyah rates from France.

I don't understand how a Jew could forget that the Shoa was not about discriminating some random minority, it was actually about discriminating Jews. That the pogroms and the ghettos weren't just policies against some random minority, it was actually about discriminating and killing Jews. We need to stand together, because the anti-Semitic poison hasn't magically gone away, it still exists and it's becoming worse and worse. However, nowadays, for many "cosmopolitan" Jews who lack any understanding of (and pride in) the precious heritage of their people, when it comes to making priorities, other Jews come last. And that's what I don't get. I totally understand if people think that there should be a two-state solution in the interest of Israel and blah blah blah, even if I totally disagree with it. But I don't understand if people simply don't care about Jewish pain, about Jewish lives, about Jewish rights, or actively try to deny their fellow Jews basic rights.

The awful level of anti-Semitism in Europe (and that, similarly, gets smuggled in under cover of other concerns in some corners of the left) is precisely what I was thinking about when I said that ag is missing some important details.

It would not have been a detail - if it were true.

Of course, I am not claiming there is no anti-semitism in Europe: but, as minorities go, my fellow tribesmen these days are a protected one. In any case, there is no way of fighting anti-semitism without fighting other kinds of xenophobia.