Trump: NFL should fire players who kneel during anthem

[Fuzzy Bear]

Trump is more upset about this topic then a skinheadcramming his car into peaceful protestors and killing someone. Let that sink in

Sums it up

I don't believe this is the case, but Trump has not prevented this from appearing to be the case to some.  He really doesn't need to talk about this issue at rallies, and I've got to admit that I'm amazed that he can't see how tone deaf he is on these issues.

Kaepernick is an idiot; he's been hoodwinked by his anti-American girlfriend into becoming an SJW on steroids.  He doesn't have a job for one reason; he's not good enough to be the guy who's the focus of media attention on his team.  And that's something he did to himself. 

I don't much care one way or the other what Kaepernick, or any other jock, does for the Anthem, but I know the owners care and I know the fans care.  I'm not a big fan of the idea of creating opportunities for people to stand for anthems, say the Pledge of Allegiance just so someone hosting an event can appear patriotic, but the National Anthem is a long-held feature of sporting events in America.  Most fans are fine with it, and most fans are not fine with folks taking a knee, especially when it's mixed with the "America is racist!" rhetoric that is grossly unfair to the vast majority of Americans. 

The biggest fault I find with what Kaepernick is doing is that if I'm not going to just write him off as flat-out anti-American and take him seriously, I can't avoid the fact that his gesture is taking his anger out on the wrong folks.  If his beef is with police and law enforcement, than why is he kneeling for a gesture that, in no small measure, is a gesture of honor for our military?  The military is the most thoroughly integrated institution in America, and the vast majority of football fans are either veterans or folks with vets as a family member; could he not see what a slap his actions are to those folks?  Kaepernick sympathizes with folks who don't want to have to look at the disrespectful Confederate monuments, and he has a point, but folks who come to football stadiums or pay for cable TV have to watch his offensive gesture in a situation where folks want a respite for all that.

And, yes, owners have every right to fire someone for kneeling if it's in their contracts.  And, yes, owners have the right to expect players to adhere to standards of conduct.  Going on a talk show and discussing police brutality on your time is one thing; creating a situation that makes uncomfortable paying customers is another.  That's not "free speech"; that's offensive conduct.  Kaepernick isn't out of a job for the views he holds; he's out of a job for diminishing his employers' product while lacking the judgment to recognize that this was what he was doing.



 

[Fuzzy Bear]

I think this is the best compromise


If you don't want to stand for the national anthem ,that's ok but you have to stay in the locker room during the anthem .

MODERATE COMPROMISE!!

"By all means you should feel free to protest, but make sure you are hidden away so no one can see you..."

That's the whole point , as the on field protest  is causing major problems for the NFL and they need to move on from this issue asap .

Outside of angry internet commenters, not really.

http://www.espn.com/nfl/story/_/id/20171611/national-anthem-protests-no-1-reason-viewers-tuned-nfl-games

 https://www.nbcnews.com/news/nbcblk/petition-calls-nfl-boycott-if-kaepernick-doesn-t-play-n790866

Does an employee of a private concern have the right, on the job, to act in a manner where their on-the-job conduct will be viewed as offensive by most customers?  

Kaepernick's gesture is a statement to everyone watching that "America is Racist".  This is rightfully offensive to millions of Americans, most of whom are not racist, and most of whom believe that America is not only a GREAT nation, but a GOOD nation as well.

America is not a PERFECT nation, but it is a more INTROSPECTIVE nation than any other I can think of.  I don't see Saudi Arabia, Iran, Mexico, El Salvador, Cuba, China, Russia, et al, as being places where national leaders ponder seriously how they treat their own.  America DOES do that.  

The problems Mr. Kaepernick professes to be an expert on are problems in America; in other places, they are a way of life.  They are problems, to be sure, but the rates of crime among blacks, relative to the rest of the population is a problem as well.  And the Kaepernicks of the world never acknowledge the false narratives; the "Hands up!  Don't shoot!" falsehood of Ferguson, MO, which began with witnesses willingly lying, is never mentioned by Kaepernick.  The fact that Michael Brown had just committed a strong-arm robbery is never mentioned by Kaepernick.  The fact that Michael Brown failed to comply with the LAWFUL instructions of a police officcer is never mentioned by Kaepernick.  The aspect of Mr. Kaepernick that offends me is not his positions or his kneeling; it's his crass intellectual dishonesty on such a divisive issue.

[Fuzzy Bear]

Now what about the issue of religious freedom?

Jehovah's Witnesses refuse to salute any national flag on grounds that such is idolatrous. Such is not a mainstream view of patriotism, but at the least I can understand how people come up with such an interpretation. The line between patriotism as a benign and a malign activity isn't clear. 

I agree that the most valuable freedoms that our Nation guarantees are the NEGATIVE freedoms.  The freedom to not be compelled to say what is NOT on your mind.  The freedom to not be compelled to submit to gestures and rituals that you DON'T believe in.  The freedom to be a Refusenik, a nay-sayer, a non-conformist in ways that don't affect the rights of others. 

Employment in the NFL isn't a right, however.  It's a  privilege.  Rights are things that involve just me; privileges are things I get to do if someone else agrees to it as well.

It is one thing to compel the Pledge of Allegiance in public school.  Kids are compelled to go there; they should not be compelled to say the Pledge, and they should not be shamed or criticized for not doing so.  That's not true of private schools, however, and it's not true of NFL games, either.  And it's not true when the motive Kaepernick gives is one of pure politics.  Many folks in many occupations are not allowed to discuss politics in the workplace for the sake of business.  This is to ensure that political disagreements don't get in the way of the conduct of business.

 

[Fuzzy Bear]

I never stand for the anthem for a variety of reasons one mainly being the countries views on Arabs and Muslims. And guess what, it's perfectly my right as an American to do that. It's not unamerican as the TRIGGERED right claims it is.

I do not see a problem with NFL players kneeling either. It's another false outrage the President and the right have.

Arab Muslims were responsible for 9/11.  And many Arab Muslims in America, at a minimum, have a degree of sympathy for Islamic Jihadists.  Given the hostility these nations have toward Israel, why should it be shocking that American citizens have the attitudes some of them have toward Arab Muslims?  Should it be considered unreasonable that American citizens may have doubts as to whether or not Arab Muslims have the same loyalty to America, right or wrong, that they have?

I'll agree that there's false outrage.  But why shouldn't I question the loyalty to America someone who refuses to stand for the Anthem out of loyalty to their country of origin and a grudge against American citizens who support, say, Trump's immigration ban?  Is America YOUR country?  Or is it just where you live?  

That's a real important question because we are NOT a nation bound by "blood and soil" as most nations of the world are.  If we are a nation where significant blocs of its CITIZENS have divided loyalties, let alone a primary loyalty to another nation, ethnic group, religious sect, etc, than what becomes of our experiment in self-government?  How can America function as a nation when one group or another are preoccupied with its ethnic and racial grievances (however justified) to the point where their loyalty to America is conditional?  What one has a right to do or not do is an entirely different question than the question of what attitudes on the part of American citizens are necessary in order for our continuing experiment in self-government and individual liberty to be successful.  When I was young, I thought this unimportant; even authoritarian, but as history has unfolded, I recognize that for America to work, its citizens have to be committed to its success, even over the perceived interest of their own groups of which they consider themselves members of.  

[Fuzzy Bear]

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When you lose Rex Ryan, you lose America.

If interested, here is video on Rex Ryan's (Former Buffalo Bills coach) comments.
http://www.cnn.com/videos/politics/2017/09/24/rex-ryan-trump-nfl-pissed-orig-vstan-dlewis.cnn

I still say f**k Rex Ryan. At of all the sh**t that assh**e trump has done and said, this is what finally triggers Rex Ryan" ?
Why is it supporters of the New Fuhrer are OK with him, until something the bastard does finally affects their own little world ? Are they that narrow minded ? Cant they see the big picture ?

You may be Proud, but you're certainly not Moderate, and I hope there's not 2 of you.

[Fuzzy Bear]

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When you lose Rex Ryan, you lose America.

If interested, here is video on Rex Ryan's (Former Buffalo Bills coach) comments.
http://www.cnn.com/videos/politics/2017/09/24/rex-ryan-trump-nfl-pissed-orig-vstan-dlewis.cnn

I still say f**k Rex Ryan. At of all the sh**t that assh**e trump has done and said, this is what finally triggers Rex Ryan" ?
Why is it supporters of the New Fuhrer are OK with him, until something the bastard does finally affects their own little world ? Are they that narrow minded ? Cant they see the big picture ?

You may be Proud, but you're certainly not Moderate, and I hope there's not 2 of you.

Your win-lose is as bad as the Bears (0-2), and you certainly are not Fuzzy in any, way, shape of form. You have such a hard-on for discussing "racial" viewpoints (9/11 & Muslims, the MS-13 gang, etc), that you don't even see that your true colors show ....

Perhaps you will want to join me on Tuesday night.  On Tuesday night, I will be at my church, opening up for and joining a Mexican Spanish-speaking congregation that uses our facility while they prepare to open their second church.  (They are, indeed, "Mexican"; they are of a similar denomination with a calling specific to the people of Mexico.)  They are wonderful people, family people, with whom I socialize and witness together.  

On other nights, at my church, many of my closest friends at my church are immigrants from Jamaica and some other Caribbean nations.  (Where I live has a significant number of such folks.)  These folks are amongst some of the most serious Christians I know, and we share not just a common faith, but a common desire to evangelize the lost of all nations, tribes and tongues.  We belong to a diverse Church body because we share a common conviction that a fragmented body of Christ, with "white churches" and "black churches" will never be effective in winning a lost and dying world to Jesus.  

I normally don't resort to defending myself in this manner, but I'm not usually called a "white nationalist Nazi" either.  I don't choose my friends, my associates, or my politicians of choice based on their race or ethnic origin.  I do look to Christians as my closest friends and associates because my commitment to sharing His Gospel is the indispensable element of my life.  These folks would be pretty amazed of your response to me, and I say this based on the idea that they have read every post I've ever placed on Atlas.  

Perhaps you're not a Christian.  If so, I understand why what I just stated would not register with you.  And I suppose I was Peck's Bad Boy with my comment, which I should have known you would react to.  It's really not meant to be nasty, but I've always found you as one of the least "moderate" folks here.  Real "moderates" wouldn't respond to me as you do.  I'm a "moderate".  Being "moderate" involves a persona as well as holding certain positions.  Most "moderate" folks tend to be able to see other folks' viewpoints, even while disagreeing with them.  Perhaps you are the one to provide the one counterexample that will disprove that conception of mine.  

[Fuzzy Bear]

It's neat how this is a reverse of the usual "But that's why Trump won" argument.

"If you wern't being such thin-skinned snowflakes, we would never have kneeled during the anthem!"

Also:

Arab Muslims were responsible for 9/11.  And many Arab Muslims in America, at a minimum, have a degree of sympathy for Islamic Jihadists.

WTF? What you said was basically what many Americans believed about Japanese-Americans before the government forced them into internment camps.

https://www.thereligionofpeace.com/pages/articles/opinion-polls.aspx

26% of younger American Muslims believe suicide bombings are justified.  (Pew Research)

19% of American Muslims believe violence is justified in attempts to establish Sharia Law.  (Pew  Research)

20% of American Muslims believe violence is justified to advance the cause of Islam.  (Pew Research)

33% of American Muslims believe Sharia Law should be superior to the Constitution.  (CSP Poll)

49% of Muslim-Americans say they are "Muslim first", 26% American first.  (Pew Research)

21% of Muslim-Americans say there is a fair to great amount of support for Islamic extremism in their community.  (Pew Research)

This is from polls conducted by public research firms, not information from conversations with Trump Rally attendees.  

[Fuzzy Bear]

If they did this before a match in Ireland, they would be the shame of a nation.  Only in America is it "cool" to hate your country.

Kneeling respectfully provocatively in hopes that something you dislike about your country will change does not equate with is a passive-aggressive act of hating your country. In fact, quite the opposite. If I hated America, I would move do my utmost to infuriate its loyal citizens. I love it, and believe in general we are very blessed to live here being suckled on the breast of Mother America, but there are things that need to change to make it better for others those who refuse to adopt a law-abiding lifestyle. Some of the harshest critiques of any particular thing come from the people who love that thing the most wish to use guilt to milk America for all its worth.

If I were to guess what was on Colin Kaepernick's mind, this would be it.

[Fuzzy Bear]

I never stand for the anthem for a variety of reasons one mainly being the countries views on Arabs and Muslims. And guess what, it's perfectly my right as an American to do that. It's not unamerican as the TRIGGERED right claims it is.

I do not see a problem with NFL players kneeling either. It's another false outrage the President and the right have.

Arab Muslims were responsible for 9/11.  And many Arab Muslims in America, at a minimum, have a degree of sympathy for Islamic Jihadists.  Given the hostility these nations have toward Israel, why should it be shocking that American citizens have the attitudes some of them have toward Arab Muslims?  Should it be considered unreasonable that American citizens may have doubts as to whether or not Arab Muslims have the same loyalty to America, right or wrong, that they have?

I'll agree that there's false outrage.  But why shouldn't I question the loyalty to America someone who refuses to stand for the Anthem out of loyalty to their country of origin and a grudge against American citizens who support, say, Trump's immigration ban?  Is America YOUR country?  Or is it just where you live?  

That's a real important question because we are NOT a nation bound by "blood and soil" as most nations of the world are.  If we are a nation where significant blocs of its CITIZENS have divided loyalties, let alone a primary loyalty to another nation, ethnic group, religious sect, etc, than what becomes of our experiment in self-government?  How can America function as a nation when one group or another are preoccupied with its ethnic and racial grievances (however justified) to the point where their loyalty to America is conditional?  What one has a right to do or not do is an entirely different question than the question of what attitudes on the part of American citizens are necessary in order for our continuing experiment in self-government and individual liberty to be successful.  When I was young, I thought this unimportant; even authoritarian, but as history has unfolded, I recognize that for America to work, its citizens have to be committed to its success, even over the perceived interest of their own groups of which they consider themselves members of.  

Fuzzy bear, with all deference to your later post about your churches working with other Christian congregations various ethnicities and races, and the really good posts you made earlier today, is diatribe about Islam it's just plain ignorance and soft bigotry personified. As in you'll never throw a rock through mosque I'm sure, but you'll happily nod your head when you read news reports of them being rounded up for camps. Which is only a scintilla better

I don't wish folks rounded up for camps.  That part was, frankly, unfair.  I do support Trump's immigration policies.  That's for folks outside the US, and not for American citizens.

I'd ask you a serious question:  Does our form of government sustain itself?  Or does it require that our citizens, whatever their differences, be supportive of our nation, even when what our nation does is opposed by folks from the lands from which an American citizen may be descended from?

You must be logged in to read this quote.

The above quote from Carl Schurz, a German immigrant who became Senator from Missouri.  It is a quote that is often quoted in part, but not in whole.  

My question is this:  Is Colin Kaepernick's country "the great American Republic"?  Or is it some corrupt, detestable, racist, sexist, homophobic state, worthy only of contempt?  As an American, I'm always willing to have my country set right by those whose country is the great American Republic.  I'm not willing to accept correction from those who loathe the Republic, and Kaepernick has not convinced me he is not in that category.  Nor, unfortunately, have a few folks posting here.  It's the difference between Dr. Martin Luther King, Jr. and Colin Kaepernick.

[Fuzzy Bear]

I never stand for the anthem for a variety of reasons one mainly being the countries views on Arabs and Muslims. And guess what, it's perfectly my right as an American to do that. It's not unamerican as the TRIGGERED right claims it is.

I do not see a problem with NFL players kneeling either. It's another false outrage the President and the right have.

America is not Anti Muslim or Anti Arab

You mean aside from the atmosphere of Islamophobia and racism directed towards Arabs and those who appear to be Arab to ignorant people, the government's history of racial profiling of Arabs and Muslims, the spying on Muslim communities following 9/11, the government's recent ban on people from several predominantly Muslim countries (while ignoring that the perpetrators of 9/11 were majority Saudi (excluded from the ban list) and most American terrorist attacks were conducted by people born in Western countries), and the hysterical right-wing conspiracies that are believed by a significant number of Americans (such as around half of Republican voters believing Obama is a Muslim)?

A certain amount of all of this is predictable, given the totality of circumstances of 9/11.  In what nation wouldn't all of this happen?  I'm not endorsing the Total Surveillance Society we now seem to live in, but folks rightfully demand that their government keep them safe, and this is how it's done these days.

I was a 2004 Kerry voter and a 2012 Obama voter.  That I support Trump on a number of issues doesn't mean I don't recognize where he's full of beans.  I certainly don't believe Obama is a Muslim, but he did grow up some of the time in a Muslim environment, and he has never hid his sympathy for Muslims.  When it came to concerns on the issue of Islamic Terror and safety, Obama could be as tone deaf on that matter as Trump is on Kaepernick and Company.

[Fuzzy Bear]

I never stand for the anthem for a variety of reasons one mainly being the countries views on Arabs and Muslims.

Christians in the Islamic world face far more discrimination and violence than Muslims anywhere in the West.

And your point is? Are we supposed to judge our country by the way people in other countries behave and are treated?

I think those issues are relevant in considering who we are going to let into the United States.

[Fuzzy Bear]

My question is this:  Is Colin Kaepernick's country "the great American Republic"?  Or is it some corrupt, detestable, racist, sexist, homophobic state, worthy only of contempt?  As an American, I'm always willing to have my country set right by those whose country is the great American Republic.  I'm not willing to accept correction from those who loathe the Republic, and Kaepernick has not convinced me he is not in that category.  Nor, unfortunately, have a few folks posting here.  It's the difference between Dr. Martin Luther King, Jr. and Colin Kaepernick.

I do not (nor does anyone else) need to prove my American patriotism to you. Many of these folks kneeling (and those of us supporting them) have said and shown time and again that they love this country. That you don't accept that is your own problem, not ours.

This country is great. But it also treats many of its citizens improperly, and that needs to be fixed.

(Edited grammar, oops.)

No, they don't.  But since folks have felt free to comment about my character and motivations, I'm free to do the same.  We certainly do this when we cast our votes, do we not?

I'm willing to listen to criticism from people who think I may have taken leave of my senses, but wish me well.  I'm less willing to accept it from people who wish me ill.  That's how I view folks who criticize the state of America as well.  Lots of traitors would like to "set America right".  And before any of you jump on me for this statement, many of you apply this same concept to Donald Trump, so . . .

[Fuzzy Bear]

I never stand for the anthem for a variety of reasons one mainly being the countries views on Arabs and Muslims. And guess what, it's perfectly my right as an American to do that. It's not unamerican as the TRIGGERED right claims it is.

I do not see a problem with NFL players kneeling either. It's another false outrage the President and the right have.

America is not Anti Muslim or Anti Arab

You mean aside from the atmosphere of Islamophobia and racism directed towards Arabs and those who appear to be Arab to ignorant people, the government's history of racial profiling of Arabs and Muslims, the spying on Muslim communities following 9/11, the government's recent ban on people from several predominantly Muslim countries (while ignoring that the perpetrators of 9/11 were majority Saudi (excluded from the ban list) and most American terrorist attacks were conducted by people born in Western countries), and the hysterical right-wing conspiracies that are believed by a significant number of Americans (such as around half of Republican voters believing Obama is a Muslim)?

The fact is if you are an refugee or immigrant from the middle east you should not call America anti muslim as it was America who gave you a better life.

So, no matter how you're treated in this country, you should shut up and accept it? It's understandable to see why Muslims may feel this way. We've been bombing and invading majority Muslim countries for nearly two decades now, engaged in imperialistic actions there for decades, many leaders (such as the President) espouse Islamophobia, they've been systematically targeted by the legal system and law enforcement, refugees and other citizens from Muslim majority countries have been scapegoated and banned from the country, and are often subjected to bigotry, discrimination, and domestic terrorism (bombing of mosques). The American government is anti-Muslim, despite the fact that it allows Muslims residence and (for most) ability to immigrate here. America's attitude and policies towards Muslims (domestically and internationally) need to be radically changed.

What about the British national anthem that the players stood for? Are the British not imperialists? "The sun never sets on the British Empire!"

I dislike the UK so much I want to leave it, but one of your colonies is almost entirely without power after a hurricane. But that's 'their' problem right? And while the UK isn't a flag bearer for race relations, at least 70 years ago US black servicemen could get counter service.

Like you just said, they're our colony so we will take care of them..
What's keeping you there?

We seem to be doing such a GREAAT job helping Puerto Rico right now...

I will agree with #TheShadowyAbyss on the issue of our Middle Eastern involvement.  These wars are their wars, and not ours.  That was one of the reasons I supported Trump; he appeared to promise a shift away from Neocon-ism.

[Fuzzy Bear]

It's neat how this is a reverse of the usual "But that's why Trump won" argument.

"If you wern't being such thin-skinned snowflakes, we would never have kneeled during the anthem!"

Also:

Arab Muslims were responsible for 9/11.  And many Arab Muslims in America, at a minimum, have a degree of sympathy for Islamic Jihadists.

WTF? What you said was basically what many Americans believed about Japanese-Americans before the government forced them into internment camps.

https://www.thereligionofpeace.com/pages/articles/opinion-polls.aspx

26% of younger American Muslims believe suicide bombings are justified.  (Pew Research)

19% of American Muslims believe violence is justified in attempts to establish Sharia Law.  (Pew  Research)

20% of American Muslims believe violence is justified to advance the cause of Islam.  (Pew Research)

33% of American Muslims believe Sharia Law should be superior to the Constitution.  (CSP Poll)

49% of Muslim-Americans say they are "Muslim first", 26% American first.  (Pew Research)

21% of Muslim-Americans say there is a fair to great amount of support for Islamic extremism in their community.  (Pew Research)

This is from polls conducted by public research firms, not information from conversations with Trump Rally attendees.  

FB, here's a pro tip. Don't take your stats for me website specifically drawn up to explain why Muslims are in fact the exception rule for peaceful religions and why they should be kept out. They just might be a Teensy bit slanted.

Go ahead and Google Pew research views American Muslims. Just in the last 2 months you'll find some of the following

If memory serves, 84% of American Muslims believe it is wrong to kill civilians to advance a political government goal. That compares to only approximately 67% of non Muslim Americans. In other words good old Americans like you and me, FB, are willing to accept collateral damage from drone strikes and bombing raids at a much higher rate than Muslim Americans are willing to tolerate suicide bombers.

A majority of American Muslims believe that the teachings of the Koran must be reinterpreted 4 modern day circumstances. Kind of ironic that you're willing to both impose the worst versions of a littlest interpretation of the Bible on secular society, just as you're willing to and turf with the worst verses of the Quran strictly against Muslim Americans to a degree that even they do not.

The percentage of American Muslims who believe that more than one version or teaching of Islam is acceptable as a post only the traditional interpretation of Islam is comprable to the same percentage of American Christians who believe the same, in the low 60 percentile range. Again, rather ironic considering you are in the minority there as well.

Finally, 92%-- let that number sink in-- 92% of American Muslims say they are proud to be American. Given all the shenanigans going on with the various sports teams protests, I wouldn't be surprised that number was lower among the non-muslim American population.

Again, choose your statistics source from a more legit vendor. It might actually change your views

My view is that we need lower levels of immigration in general, regardless of country of origin.  And those we let in ought to be fully vetted, including vetting as to issues of philosophy.  I don't care about race or ethnicity.  I care very much about one's commitment to liberal democracy and a republican form of government.  

I don't believe Americans ought to allow folks who do not agree with the concept of liberal democracy and individual liberties to emigrate to America, or to come to America and birth children here who will be raised to oppose liberal democracy and individual liberty.  This is not a "Muslim" issue, but it is not unfair to say that Muslims who support a Caliphate are not compatible with the sort of Constitutional freedoms and rights that I would assume most here seek to uphold.  The time to ask these questions is before someone is allowed to emigrate.

This issue is more complicated than most folks realize.  I don't care if I wake up someday and find myself as a racial or religious minority.  I do care if I wake up someday and find out that a new majority of Americans have used democracy to end liberty.  Every Iron Curtain Communist regime was installed in elections; this can certainly happen in America if enough things went wrong.

 

[Fuzzy Bear]

I've been thinking about this whole issue for several days now.  Could I be wrong?  It certainly wouldn't be the first time.

I feel progressively uncomfortable with Trump's injection of himself into this issue.  There's the issue of a President urging private employers to fire folks for doing something he doesn't agree with.  Even given the inflammatory nature of what the kneelers are doing, what Trump is doing is quite the push of the envelope.  And calling them "sons of bitches" is very much beneath the Presidency.

I don't buy the idea that those who kneel are "respectful".  They are contemptuous of America, and they have been caught at that.  Think about it; if you didn't stand in Court when the bailiff said "All rise!", you'd be held in contempt.  Kneeling in protest of a Judge's decision would not be considered respectful, and rightfully so.  The next time you appeared in Court, you'd probably be needing your checkbook and a toothbrush.  In spirit, I see the kneelers as the same; contemptuous of America until they can remake it in the image they wish to remake it in.  

But I have come around to think that there is something un-American about the way Trump is going about this.  Mike Pence would react to this by saying, "This is what freedom looks like and sounds like." and leave the repercussions to the owners (if there were to be repercussions) without comment.  The kneelers are anti-American, and I've got a closed mind on that.  But using leverage to get folks fired is un-American, if sensibilities are offended, the free market can handle this issue.  I will say that it's hard for me to see how Trump is going to be able to use his incumbency to bring folks together even in the face of Rocket Man having a bigger meltdown than he's already had.

[Fuzzy Bear]

I never stand for the anthem for a variety of reasons one mainly being the countries views on Arabs and Muslims. And guess what, it's perfectly my right as an American to do that. It's not unamerican as the TRIGGERED right claims it is.

I do not see a problem with NFL players kneeling either. It's another false outrage the President and the right have.

Arab Muslims were responsible for 9/11.  And many Arab Muslims in America, at a minimum, have a degree of sympathy for Islamic Jihadists.  Given the hostility these nations have toward Israel, why should it be shocking that American citizens have the attitudes some of them have toward Arab Muslims?  Should it be considered unreasonable that American citizens may have doubts as to whether or not Arab Muslims have the same loyalty to America, right or wrong, that they have?

I'll agree that there's false outrage.  But why shouldn't I question the loyalty to America someone who refuses to stand for the Anthem out of loyalty to their country of origin and a grudge against American citizens who support, say, Trump's immigration ban?  Is America YOUR country?  Or is it just where you live?  

That's a real important question because we are NOT a nation bound by "blood and soil" as most nations of the world are.  If we are a nation where significant blocs of its CITIZENS have divided loyalties, let alone a primary loyalty to another nation, ethnic group, religious sect, etc, than what becomes of our experiment in self-government?  How can America function as a nation when one group or another are preoccupied with its ethnic and racial grievances (however justified) to the point where their loyalty to America is conditional?  What one has a right to do or not do is an entirely different question than the question of what attitudes on the part of American citizens are necessary in order for our continuing experiment in self-government and individual liberty to be successful.  When I was young, I thought this unimportant; even authoritarian, but as history has unfolded, I recognize that for America to work, its citizens have to be committed to its success, even over the perceived interest of their own groups of which they consider themselves members of.  

Look at the beam in your own eye? Your candidate literally egged on a foreign military intelligence attack on US citizens, and insulted our own country's civil servants, endangering their lives in the process. If he had loyalty to America, he would not have done that, regardless of partisan politics, and you forfeited the right to talk about "loyalty" when you supported him after his remarks.

My right to question the loyalty of the kneelers isn't forfeited.  I'm going to use that right again and again. 

Trump is far more loyal to America than the kneelers.  That being said, his actions here, upon reflection are un-American.  That Colin Kaepernick is anti-American doesn't change that.

[Fuzzy Bear]

How the NFL sold patriotism to the U.S. military for millions

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NFL Owners and Executives Who Protested Donald Trump Are the Biggest Hypocrites Yet

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The underlined part is true if you go with that point of view.  Let's stand for freedom as we blackball Kaepernick.  There are good reasons for a team not wanting Kaepernick as their QB at this point, but the fact that he isn't even in the league is certainly the appearance of impropriety.  I do understand, however, the desire of a team to not have a QB generate the kind of media buzz Kaepernick will now generate when he's not a star-quality player anymore.  (And he's not; he lost it a few years ago and now he's really no better than a whole bunch of guys fighting for field time.)

I do wonder if some of this is Trump wanting to get back at the NFL.  I remembered yesterday that in the 1980s, Trump was the owner of the USFL New Jersey Generals, the USFL's flagship franchise.  Trump led the USFL owners to decide to sue the NFL for anti-trust violations, and get the USFL to be a fall league, and not a spring league.  And Trump won his lawsuit - with treble damages.  Unfortunately, the award for winning was $1.00, so treble damages made it $3.00 for the USFL, which went under.  I suspect Trump derives some pleasure from the general chaos the NFL is experiencing right now.

[Fuzzy Bear]

To be clear, I appreciate Fuzzy Bear's willingness to change his opinion. I think he's a quality poster overall, even though we strongly disagree on a lot of issues. I am just still mystified at how anyone can talk about nationalism and the flag while excusing Trump's invitation to the Russians to hack us last year. I realize that's a different topic and some liberals don't even care about it but it's just mind-boggling.

That's exactly what I was thinking, but thought I shouldn't go there, since it is off-topic.
FB says "Trump is far more loyal to America than the kneelers," but as Beet is pointing to, trump totally denies that the Russians hacked/intervened-in our elections.
To trump it is all "fake news" and just "a witch hunt." But yet all our national intelligence agencies are saying that it happened !

Russia's actions should be 1000 times more of a concern (compared to knelling to our flag) to every citizen in our nation. Yet trumpists give the Orange-Haired Clown a pass, and go on to call him "more loyal to America."
WTF.

There is an investigation going on.  I will wait until that is concluded to judge Trump. 

I will note that many of the most raving accusations at best remain unproven.  I will trust the findings of Mr. Mueller, but I will not trust the mainstream media on this issue.  They have become vested in "getting Trump", and they have lost credibility and harmed their own institutions.

[Fuzzy Bear]

I have been busy the past couple of weeks with work and academia, so I did not have enough time to process what Trump said on Sept. 22 in Huntsville, Ala.

I think that Trump made an idiotic move, by stirring up this tension with the NFL/black players.

I do support the right to kneel during the American National Anthem. I believe it is right.

It is a right.  But it is also the right of an employer to set standards of conduct for employees while they are on the clock.  And NFL players are on the clock while they are doing this.

It is also President Trump's right to fire off tweets of disapproval and make statements suggesting these folks be fired.  That's his right; he doesn't forfeit it just because he's President.

If you want to talk about the WISDOM and MORAL RIGHTNESS of Trump exercising his rights in the manner he has, that's another question, and a fair one.  If you want to talk about the WISDOM or MORAL RIGHTNESS of NFL owners seeking to enforce standards of conduct during the National Anthem, and sanctioning violators of such standards, that's another issue.  But if those are fair questions, than the WISDOM and MORAL RIGHTNESS of the conduct of NFL players protesting in a way that is KNOWINGLY OFFENSIVE TO MILLIONS OF DECENT AMERICANS ON THEIR EMPLOYER'S DIME when other avenues of protest (not on their employer's dime) that would get their point across and heard without being deliberately offensive is also a fair question.

[Fuzzy Bear]

Fuzzy Bear:
1. Should Biblical law be superior to the Constitution?
2. Would you describe yourself as Christian first or American first?

A fair question, and one that deserves an answer.

The second question, first:  I am a Christian, first.  "I am the Lord, thy God.  Thou shalt have no other Gods before me."  This is the first Commandment, and this includes placing nation before God.  I do not kneel before the flag; it is of man.  I kneel before God, because only He is worthy.  Scripture does, however, say, "Render unto Caesar what is Caesar's.", and this, to me, commands Christians to show the respect of standing for an anthem if that is customary.  There are also many Scriptures that command a Christian to not act in a way that would give unnecessary offense.  Proverbs says, "A brother offended is harder to win than a walled city."  Colin Kaepernick has said he's a Christian, so I would ask why is he acting in such a way as to offend so many brethren unnecessarily?

Scripture also calls for folks to live peaceably with others.  “If it be possible, as much as lieth in you, live peaceably with all men.” (Romans 12:18).  This speaks to the folks that are often criticized as typical of Christians; the abortion clinic bomber, the Westboro Baptist Church head cases, the poorly behaved at Trump rallies.  (Trump carried the marginal churchgoers in the primary; regular churchgoers went heavily for Cruz, btw.)  Indeed, Matthew 22:37-39 provides the most important commandment of Jesus, Himself, which is two-fold:

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This brings me to the first question.  My answer is simple:  Biblical Law is superior to the law of man.  This, too, requires expounding, and it requires an honest discussion of the differences between Biblical Christianity and Islam, between the Allah of the Quran and the Jehovah of the Bible.  

Nowhere does Scripture command, or even condone, a Christian Jihadic movement.  Scripture, itself, does not command a theocracy; it implies a separation of Church and State, and points out that a nations leaders are there because God, if not annointing them, has at least allowed them to be in power.  Scripture commands believers to obey the laws and ordinances of man, and does not call folks to massive campaigns of civil disobedience.  Indeed, the only civil disobedience that is sanctioned by the Bible is that of not denying Christ as one's Lord and Savior.  It does not require a dress code or wearing specific jewelry, but it does command that one not deny Christ.  The martyrs of the first century "loved not their lives, even unto death"; they did not, however, strap bombs to themselves in an attempt to kill others for a divine reward.

https://imprimis.hillsdale.edu/islam-facts-or-dreams/

Perhaps I misstated a key issue:  The issue is not whether or not a person is an "American" first, or a "Christian/Muslim" first.  The question is whether or not one's underlying religious beliefs are in harmony with, or in opposition to, liberal democracy.

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To that end, I would suggest that to one can be a Christian, and follow Scripture, and be in harmony with our Constitutional system of government (if not every statute) and our system of enumerated powers of government and enumerated rights of individuals.  I would also suggest, however, that a Muslim cannot be in harmony with their faith and with the requirements of Quranic Islam; that those who are in harmony are those who ignore significant parts of Islam.  I do not wish to pretend I am knowledgeable about the Quran, but I will point out two key differences between Allah and Jehovah God:

1.  Allah has contempt for unbelievers and infidels.  Jehovah so loved the World that he gave his only begotten son to die for the sins of the world, that whoseover believeth upon his Son's sacrifice shall have eternal life.

2.  Allah commands believers to Jihad; to conversion by the sword.  Jehovah never commands anyone forcibly to come to Jesus.  Never, in Scripture, is Jihad commanded.  And I would humbly suggest that there is a world of difference between even obnoxious, pushy, streetcorner preaching and acts of Jihadic violence that consume innocent human life.

I can be a Christian, live a Christian life, and be in harmony with our system of Constitutional liberties.  I don't know that a Muslim can do so without being out of harmony with Islam.  And the answer to that question lies not with "moderate Muslims", but with the scholars they rely on for their own religious guidance.  This is not an advocacy for a "Muslim Ban", but in light of the totality of 9/11 and subsequent events, I think it is fair to deal with Islam as it is, and not what we hope it is.  I think it's OK and fair to ask prospective Muslim immigrants what their exact thoughts on these subjects are in the vetting process.