Senate Discussion and Noticeboard

[MasterJedi]

Having two leadership positions for a legislative body of ten-and-a-half is a little silly, though.

It's worked great in the past though. Usually the VP doesn't want to do anything anyways and they just take the job to have a title. But if you get one that wants to they can really help the PPT out and vice versa. Usually it plays out that when once person can't be on the other is and the Senate doesn't get slowed down.

[Fritz]

If this had been in effect last session, Senate leadership would have continued uninterrupted when Marokai Blue becames a Justice and when Franzl became SoFA.  As it was, Bacon King had to step in and temporarily take over while an election for PPT was conducted.  It is slightly disruptive to Senate business to have these situations continually occuring.

As for inactive VP's, I have two responses.  First, VP's probably are inactive because they do what is expected of them (i.e., nothing).  A candidate for VP knowing this was part of the job from the get-go would step up to the plate.  Second, if the VP really is inactive, then we already have a problem when the PPT-ship becomes vacant.

[MasterJedi]

Oh boy, Bacon King had to step in for a little bit and it was "slightly" disruptive meaning not really at all. You still have given no reason for the bill and I will campaign for it to fail which I know it will. Waste your time if you will.

[MaxQue]

I'll vote against that bill unless than the bill is amended to keep the PPT office, but allowing to "suspend" the office for the session. It is like we decided to elect the VP as the PPT.

So, we would have the choice of leaving the job to the VP or electing a PPT.

[MasterJedi]

I'll vote against that bill unless than the bill is amended to keep the PPT office, but allowing to "suspend" the office for the session. It is like we decided to elect the VP as the PPT.

So, we would have the choice of leaving the job to the VP or electing a PPT.

Why not just reform the OSPR to allow the VP to be elected PPT instead. That would be the best solution though IMO the VP wouldn't be a good PPT. Bacon King would be good but the previous VP, Meeker, would have been absolutly dreadful along with many in a line before him.

And no change to the Dean, another thing that Hamilton knows nothing about. The Dean is there in case the PPT and or VP is gone. So that idea can be thrown out.

[MaxQue]

I'll vote against that bill unless than the bill is amended to keep the PPT office, but allowing to "suspend" the office for the session. It is like we decided to elect the VP as the PPT.

So, we would have the choice of leaving the job to the VP or electing a PPT.

Why not just reform the OSPR to allow the VP to be elected PPT instead. That would be the best solution though IMO the VP wouldn't be a good PPT. Bacon King would be good but the previous VP, Meeker, would have been absolutly dreadful along with many in a line before him.

Well, I agree with you. That is why I am against the abolition of the PPT office. Some VPs were awful.

[Fritz]

If th Vice-President cannot lead the Senate, then he is unfit for the office of VP, even under current law.  What would have happened if Meeker had been the VP in this last session?

Under my bill, candidates for VP will have to campaign regarding why they would be a good Senate leader.  Those with no inclination to lead the Senate would not seek the job.  It is silly to oppose this based on VP's past.

This is about efficiency.  MJ, if you're going to make it your mission in life to oppose everything Fritz ever proposes, thats your prerogative I guess.

[Franzl]

MJ, if you're going to make it your mission in life to oppose everything Fritz ever proposes, thats your prerogative I guess.

His mission is to oppose change in any form. And do it in an insulting manner.

[MasterJedi]

This is about efficiency.  MJ, if you're going to make it your mission in life to oppose everything Fritz ever proposes, thats your prerogative I guess.

It's nothing against you but I just seem to not like much of anything that you write. I can say that if anyone else suggested them I'd be on there ass about it too.

[Southern Senator North Carolina Yankee]

What happened in the last session was a complete anomaly. I do not see us going through three PPT's in one session again, anytime soon. If it were to occur on multiple occasions, then of course I would consider supporting it.

[Badger]

FWIW, I support the bill. The VP's role should be expanded to something more constructive than waiting for the President to take a leave of absence and casting tie-breaking votes. It's somewhat akin to the VP in RL being President of the Senate. It's just the modern VP role of acting as a shadow president leaves too little time for such duties except to cast tie-breakers. John Adams, for example, frequently acted as "PPT" of the RL Senate.

[Southern Senator North Carolina Yankee]

FWIW, I support the bill. The VP's role should be expanded to something more constructive than waiting for the President to take a leave of absence and casting tie-breaking votes. It's somewhat akin to the VP in RL being President of the Senate. It's just the modern VP role of acting as a shadow president leaves too little time for such duties except to cast tie-breakers. John Adams, for example, frequently acted as "PPT" of the RL Senate.

It just seems like an unecessary change to me, I don't know maybe its because I don't like the idea of the office being removed while I am in the position. just kidding.

All joking aside though, what happened in the last senate was a rare occurance. I doubt you will find an occasion where we are reduced to 7 members again and I doubt that two of them will have been PPT prior to removal. A very rare occurance indeed, we shouldn't be making changes based on the occurance of an anomaly, instead they should be based on reoccuring events.

[Badger]

FWIW, I support the bill. The VP's role should be expanded to something more constructive than waiting for the President to take a leave of absence and casting tie-breaking votes. It's somewhat akin to the VP in RL being President of the Senate. It's just the modern VP role of acting as a shadow president leaves too little time for such duties except to cast tie-breakers. John Adams, for example, frequently acted as "PPT" of the RL Senate.

It just seems like an unecessary change to me, I don't know maybe its because I don't like the idea of the office being removed while I am in the position. just kidding.

All joking aside though, what happened in the last senate was a rare occurance. I doubt you will find an occasion where we are reduced to 7 members again and I doubt that two of them will have been PPT prior to removal. A very rare occurance indeed, we shouldn't be making changes based on the occurance of an anomaly, instead they should be based on reoccuring events.

I agree the circumstances were unique, but I've often thought this a worthy role for the VP, even with a full 10 member body.

[Fmr. Pres. Duke]

In my opinion, it's always good to have a backup in case of a leave of absence, especially in the case of an internet forum. Bacon King was an exception, not the rule, when it comes to Vice Presidents and their activity. In Atlasia, as in real life, the VP is pretty much a seat warmer in case the President is incapacitated to the point where he cannot serve. In that event, the position becomes useful. One cannot "force" activity, and if some VP, who's duty it was to lead the Senate, became inactive, then the government would have to go through the motions to find someone else fit to serve, creating unneeded drama and work.

In short, don't change what ain't broken. The Masterjedi incident was not the norm.

[Southern Senator North Carolina Yankee]

In my opinion, it's always good to have a backup in case of a leave of absence, especially in the case of an internet forum. Bacon King was an exception, not the rule, when it comes to Vice Presidents and their activity. In Atlasia, as in real life, the VP is pretty much a seat warmer in case the President is incapacitated to the point where he cannot serve. In that event, the position becomes useful. One cannot "force" activity, and if some VP, who's duty it was to lead the Senate, became inactive, then the government would have to go through the motions to find someone else fit to serve, creating unneeded drama and work.

In short, don't change what ain't broken. The Masterjedi incident was not the norm.

I don't think it was MJ's sudden inactivity that motivated this rather the events of December in which three people ascended to the PPT because two Senators where appointed to other offices who just so happened to be the PPT.

[Teddy (IDS Legislator)]

Proposal to save space at the top of this forum:

This thread be moved to the government forum.

[Fritz]

Proposal to save space at the top of this forum:

This thread be moved to the government forum.

"This thread" already exists in the Government fourm, serving exactly the same purpose.

[Southern Senator North Carolina Yankee]

Proposal to save space at the top of this forum:

This thread be moved to the government forum.

"This thread" already exists in the Government fourm, serving exactly the same purpose.

It was put here as a way to increase involvement of non senators in the debate and prevent cluttering of the debate threads.  The one in the gov't forum is only used for Pre-debate debate.

[Fmr. Pres. Duke]

In my opinion, it's always good to have a backup in case of a leave of absence, especially in the case of an internet forum. Bacon King was an exception, not the rule, when it comes to Vice Presidents and their activity. In Atlasia, as in real life, the VP is pretty much a seat warmer in case the President is incapacitated to the point where he cannot serve. In that event, the position becomes useful. One cannot "force" activity, and if some VP, who's duty it was to lead the Senate, became inactive, then the government would have to go through the motions to find someone else fit to serve, creating unneeded drama and work.

In short, don't change what ain't broken. The Masterjedi incident was not the norm.

I don't think it was MJ's sudden inactivity that motivated this rather the events of December in which three people ascended to the PPT because two Senators where appointed to other offices who just so happened to be the PPT.

My point remains. Those events were exceptions. It's about as silly as the argument that we should abolish the electoral college because it didn't work 2/44 times in our history. If something works 9.5/10 times, it's ludicrous to change it for the 0.5/10 times it doesn't work.

[Хahar 🤔]

In my opinion, it's always good to have a backup in case of a leave of absence, especially in the case of an internet forum. Bacon King was an exception, not the rule, when it comes to Vice Presidents and their activity. In Atlasia, as in real life, the VP is pretty much a seat warmer in case the President is incapacitated to the point where he cannot serve. In that event, the position becomes useful. One cannot "force" activity, and if some VP, who's duty it was to lead the Senate, became inactive, then the government would have to go through the motions to find someone else fit to serve, creating unneeded drama and work.

In short, don't change what ain't broken. The Masterjedi incident was not the norm.

I don't think it was MJ's sudden inactivity that motivated this rather the events of December in which three people ascended to the PPT because two Senators where appointed to other offices who just so happened to be the PPT.

My point remains. Those events were exceptions. It's about as silly as the argument that we should abolish the electoral college because it didn't work 2/44 times in our history. If something works 9.5/10 times, it's ludicrous to change it for the 0.5/10 times it doesn't work.

If something works 9.5/10 times and there's a substitute that works 10/10 times, it's liducrous to use the former.

But I digress.

[MaxQue]

In my opinion, it's always good to have a backup in case of a leave of absence, especially in the case of an internet forum. Bacon King was an exception, not the rule, when it comes to Vice Presidents and their activity. In Atlasia, as in real life, the VP is pretty much a seat warmer in case the President is incapacitated to the point where he cannot serve. In that event, the position becomes useful. One cannot "force" activity, and if some VP, who's duty it was to lead the Senate, became inactive, then the government would have to go through the motions to find someone else fit to serve, creating unneeded drama and work.

In short, don't change what ain't broken. The Masterjedi incident was not the norm.

I don't think it was MJ's sudden inactivity that motivated this rather the events of December in which three people ascended to the PPT because two Senators where appointed to other offices who just so happened to be the PPT.

My point remains. Those events were exceptions. It's about as silly as the argument that we should abolish the electoral college because it didn't work 2/44 times in our history. If something works 9.5/10 times, it's ludicrous to change it for the 0.5/10 times it doesn't work.

Well, in some situations 95% of efficiency is acceptable and sometimes 95% of efficiency is not acceptable. In this case, the PPT case, 95% is acceptable. In some other cases, like sending people to jail, being right 95% isn't acceptable, since there is 5% of non guilty prisoners.

[Fmr. Pres. Duke]

In my opinion, it's always good to have a backup in case of a leave of absence, especially in the case of an internet forum. Bacon King was an exception, not the rule, when it comes to Vice Presidents and their activity. In Atlasia, as in real life, the VP is pretty much a seat warmer in case the President is incapacitated to the point where he cannot serve. In that event, the position becomes useful. One cannot "force" activity, and if some VP, who's duty it was to lead the Senate, became inactive, then the government would have to go through the motions to find someone else fit to serve, creating unneeded drama and work.

In short, don't change what ain't broken. The Masterjedi incident was not the norm.

I don't think it was MJ's sudden inactivity that motivated this rather the events of December in which three people ascended to the PPT because two Senators where appointed to other offices who just so happened to be the PPT.

My point remains. Those events were exceptions. It's about as silly as the argument that we should abolish the electoral college because it didn't work 2/44 times in our history. If something works 9.5/10 times, it's ludicrous to change it for the 0.5/10 times it doesn't work.

Well, in some situations 95% of efficiency is acceptable and sometimes 95% of efficiency is not acceptable. In this case, the PPT case, 95% is acceptable. In some other cases, like sending people to jail, being right 95% isn't acceptable, since there is 5% of non guilty prisoners.

Exactly. In addition, the chances we have an inactive VP is much higher than the chances the PPT goes inactive. One can talk about the VP having to be more active all they want - it doesn't mean it will happen. Bacon King has just been a great Vice President and has been able to step in when we needed him. His activity for a VP is almost unprecedented.

[Southern Senator North Carolina Yankee]

In my opinion, it's always good to have a backup in case of a leave of absence, especially in the case of an internet forum. Bacon King was an exception, not the rule, when it comes to Vice Presidents and their activity. In Atlasia, as in real life, the VP is pretty much a seat warmer in case the President is incapacitated to the point where he cannot serve. In that event, the position becomes useful. One cannot "force" activity, and if some VP, who's duty it was to lead the Senate, became inactive, then the government would have to go through the motions to find someone else fit to serve, creating unneeded drama and work.

In short, don't change what ain't broken. The Masterjedi incident was not the norm.

I don't think it was MJ's sudden inactivity that motivated this rather the events of December in which three people ascended to the PPT because two Senators where appointed to other offices who just so happened to be the PPT.

My point remains. Those events were exceptions. It's about as silly as the argument that we should abolish the electoral college because it didn't work 2/44 times in our history. If something works 9.5/10 times, it's ludicrous to change it for the 0.5/10 times it doesn't work.

Well, in some situations 95% of efficiency is acceptable and sometimes 95% of efficiency is not acceptable. In this case, the PPT case, 95% is acceptable. In some other cases, like sending people to jail, being right 95% isn't acceptable, since there is 5% of non guilty prisoners.

Exactly. In addition, the chances we have an inactive VP is much higher than the chances the PPT goes inactive. One can talk about the VP having to be more active all they want - it doesn't mean it will happen. Bacon King has just been a great Vice President and has been able to step in when we needed him. His activity for a VP is almost unprecedented.

And the recent modifications basically turns the debate into one of activity of the PPT versus activity of the veep and historically the PPT has been more active.

[Peter]

You lot didn't get to see Vice President Emsworth. That was a sight to see.

[Filuwaúrdjan]

You lot didn't get to see Vice President Emsworth. That was a sight to see.

Haha, yes...