Who won the final Presidential debate?

[Benjamin Frank]

This debate makes it clear that the idea Trump is a good debater in a load of nonsense.  

Even leaving aside that he made up for his appalling ignorance on every public policy issue by simply lying, he was painful to listen to.  He has the vocabulary of a nine year old and he rambles semi incoherently.

In regards to his appalling ignorance, I think he knows more about the history of Joe Biden's residency than he does about any public policy issue.  

[Benjamin Frank]

I think with Trump under the threat of being muted, Biden had space to make his positions clear.

Biden was quite good.

Trump however did handle the "Paris Accord' stuff well.

Why should the USA sign up for reductions in industrial activity when China, India and Russia do not stop polluting until 2030?

Trump did get that point across well.

Trump is more feisty, but clearly, Biden is more 'Presidential' in a traditional sense.

I think the race has tightened, but I cannot escape the COVID-19 infection at the point where Trump lost it.

Even if Trump won the debate, it's too little, too late.

1.Nobody stops polluting by 2030.

2.With that out of the way, this really is a half truth.  It is true that India, China and Russia do not have to start lowering their emissions until 2030, but they are 'required' under the Paris Climate Accords to slow their rate of increases in emissions until 2030 when they have to start decreasing them.  So, they also have to start addressing their emissions output.

3.The Accords, at this point, are completely voluntary. Russia signed on but has shown no interest in slowing its rate of emissions.  However, Trump actually told the truth on China and India being 'a mess' and both nations are seeking to cut their emissions for their own environmental interests anyway.

[Benjamin Frank]

I literally do not understand people who think Trump won. We must have been watching debates. "Not making QUITE as much of a fool of himself as last time" does not, in fact, constitute a "win."

Well On how it relates to the election yah Biden will still win, but on pure debate terms every topic was basically a tie except the economy and energy which Trump win

I STRONGLY disagree. "Wind kills birds." What? Trump was flat-out objectively wrong in just about everything he said in those sections. And/or incoherent. And the rest of the debate, Biden spanked him. ESPECIALLY on COVID and healthcare, you know, the most important topics of the election.

Wind turbines do kill birds, but so does every other energy source, and much more so.

https://theconversation.com/wind-farms-are-hardly-the-bird-slayers-theyre-made-out-to-be-heres-why-79567

"There is no such thing as a free lunch."

Cats kill the most birds.

[Benjamin Frank]

Trump was far sharper than he usually is. Actually came prepared. In that sense he probably gave republicans on the fence the excuse they need to pull the lever for him.

As for the actual debate Joe Biden won pretty clearly and this was his best performance this season with the possible exception of the Biden-Sanders debate. Should absolutely kill the Biden has dementia talking point if it wasn’t dead already.

Overall, it probably doesn’t change much. Possibly a small plus for Trump given that this performance somewhat erases his completely nutcase behaviour post getting Covid in the minds of americans with goldfish level cognitive abilities.

One good thing for Biden is that the Hunter Biden attacks fell pretty flat.

It's easy to seem prepared when you aren't constrained by actual facts.

Also, I thought most of his answers were semi incoherent.  He was better prepared in that he was restrained from getting into arguments for the most part.

[Benjamin Frank]

I appreciate the concerns of those who would be negatively effected by Biden's policy on moving to renewable energy.  Though they do have until 2035 to adjust and many energy companies already are moving to renewables.

However, clearly Donald Trump was the traditional politician here: beholden to powerful corporate interests.

Also, this isn't anything new, but I thought just how much Donald Trump demands to be held to a different standard than everybody else was thoroughly exposed.

Donald Trump
"Joe Biden is a failed politician because as vice president he couldn't negotiate with Congress

Also Donald Trump
"It's Nancy Pelosi's fault I couldn't get covid relief.  I'm not responsible."

[Benjamin Frank]

I literally do not understand people who think Trump won. We must have been watching debates. "Not making QUITE as much of a fool of himself as last time" does not, in fact, constitute a "win."

Well On how it relates to the election yah Biden will still win, but on pure debate terms every topic was basically a tie except the economy and energy which Trump win

I STRONGLY disagree. "Wind kills birds." What? Trump was flat-out objectively wrong in just about everything he said in those sections. And/or incoherent. And the rest of the debate, Biden spanked him. ESPECIALLY on COVID and healthcare, you know, the most important topics of the election.

Biden was winning on the topic until the oil gaffe imo

Not a gaffe. Most Americans agree.

That's not necessarily how these things work though.  It isn't what most people agree with, but who votes based on which issue.  It might be reasonable to conclude that the majority of people who will vote on this are those who support the status quo of fossil fuels.

It might also be reasonable to conclude that most of those are Donald Trump supporters to begin with, but that might be less certain.

[Benjamin Frank]

This talk about the oil comments remind me of the panicking people were doing when they thought Trump would poll better because of his law and order fear-mongering at the height of the Floyd protests and riots. Times have changed, and drill baby drill isn't something that appeals to the voters Trump needs to win. Much like race relations, voters have come a long way on the issue of climate change in recent years.

Biden won't be hurt by talking about transitioning away from oil at some vague point in the future.

Texas is one of the leading states in production of renewable energy.

[Benjamin Frank]

I literally do not understand people who think Trump won. We must have been watching debates. "Not making QUITE as much of a fool of himself as last time" does not, in fact, constitute a "win."

Well On how it relates to the election yah Biden will still win, but on pure debate terms every topic was basically a tie except the economy and energy which Trump win

I STRONGLY disagree. "Wind kills birds." What? Trump was flat-out objectively wrong in just about everything he said in those sections. And/or incoherent. And the rest of the debate, Biden spanked him. ESPECIALLY on COVID and healthcare, you know, the most important topics of the election.

Biden was winning on the topic until the oil gaffe imo

Not a gaffe. Most Americans agree.

That's not necessarily how these things work though.  It isn't what most people agree with, but who votes based on which issue.  It might be reasonable to conclude that the majority of people who will vote on this are those who support the status quo of fossil fuels.

This is an extremely important point that is often overlooked when people state that the public agrees with most democratic policies. Similarly, most people favour taxing the rich, but very few people who are in favour of that actually vote based on that, whereas those affected by a tax hike might very well vote (and donate) based on that.

I can't take credit for the coming up with the point.  It was often said in the 1990s and 2000s in regards to guns and abortion.  A majority of Americans favored gun control and abortion rights, but most people who voted on those issues were against gun control and abortion rights.