What lead you guys...

[Swing low, sweet chariot. Comin' for to carry me home.]

I became a Christian much like Paul did when he was knocked off his horse...it wasn’t by choice, I was called.  In 1992, I was dating a girl (who later became my wife).  She belonged to a Christian church (World Wide Church of God, founded by Herbert Armstrong) which was mixing a lot of the Laws of Moses (unclean foods, Jewish Holy Days) into Christianity.  After a couple of dates, she informed me she wasn’t supposed to be dating outside of her church.  So, I told her I would look into her beliefs.

I was raised a Christian (Catholic), but didn’t practice it, didn’t go to church, and knew only two verses of the bible, Gen 1:1 and John 3:16.  So, I could maybe be categorized a “Christian” for the purpose of a Census, but that is about as far as my Christianity went.

Luckily, I hadn’t been brain-washed enough by the Catholic Church to think I couldn’t interpret the bible myself without the help of the Vatican.  So, I thought, “All these denominations can’t all be right since they have differing beliefs.  I’ll just read the bible and see what it says and let the chips fall where they may, even if it means I can’t date my current girlfriend."

On my very first night of my “research” into the bible, I happened to begin at the book of Galatians.  Which just so happens to be addressed to a near carbon-copy of my girlfriend’s church.

After reading for about an hour, it was obvious that her church’s mixing of the Law of Moses was off-track. And God opened my eyes and I started thinking to myself, “What is the purpose of their deception?”  Then God allowed me to perceive the spiritual battle that was going on in her church’s deception – that there was a battle being waged over the possession of something of value – souls.  That there was a purpose to their deception, that demonic forces were deceiving them to keep them from being saved.

At that point, I got up from the table where I was studying and wept out of joy that I finally believed in Jesus (I guess you can say I believed in Jesus because God allowed me to perceive the forces deceiving my girlfriend’s church).  And I paced my floor of my apartment weeping out of joy that I finally believed.

At that moment I asked a myself a question, “Is this why [my girlfriend and the association with her church] had been brought into my life, so that I would believe?” (I actually used to subscribe to the free magazines her church published when I was a teenager, because I occasionally stumbled upon their broadcast on TV very late at night.  And it just so happened that when I was in college, I became friends with a guy whose dad was a deacon in that church.  And through that friend I became friends with many of the sons of the leadership of that church and they had become my circle of friends for several years and I hung around their families, including their parents, almost every weekend.  It was through them I met my girlfriend at a party and I felt an immediate spiritual attraction to her the first instant I laid eyes on her and I had never felt that before with anyone, much less the first moment of meeting someone.  This really perplexed me because I had always treated women worse than I had treated my cars, and I was hard on my cars.  I kept a close eye on her for a year because she was dating one of my close friends at the time and I was also dating someone.  After a year, neither one of us was dating anyone and I asked her out.  My study began a couple of weeks later.)

So, my question “Is this why [all these things] had been brought into my life, so that I would believe?” was very loaded and included events going back to when I was a teenager.  Immediately after I asked that I received the Holy Spirit and God spoke to me and said, “Yes, that is the reason why.  Now go and tell them the truth.”

Obviously, my revelation from God didn’t sit well with my girlfriend or her parents, or my friends in her church, or the parents of my friends who just happen to be part of the leadership of that church.  To put in mildly, it was as if God had dropped a bomb in my life and my “revelation” sent shockwaves through many families and turned mine upside down.  I had been a non-religious friend to several of the families of the leadership of a church, I had been a guest at their dinner tables dozens upon dozens of times...and now I was coming to them claiming that I, a non-religious person, had a message for them from God that they were deceived.

Through all of it, I saved my girlfriend (who later became my wife) and just of few friends out of that church.  But I also led my mother and step-father to Christ and my brothers still to this day frequently ask me questions about Jesus.

Since my wife’s old church was dabbling in the Law of Moses, I became a student of the Old Testament (OT) as well as the New Testament (NT).  That has helped me realize that the whole NT can be taught from the OT and every NT doctrine has an OT precedent.  This is how the Apostles were able to use the OT as the bible of the first generation of Christians.  That is how the people of Berea were able to use the OT to verify what Paul was teaching: “They examined the Scriptures every day to see if what Paul said was true.” (Acts 17:11)

And since the whole NT can be taught from the OT, Paul commanded the churches “Do not go beyond what is written." (1Cor 4:6)

[Swing low, sweet chariot. Comin' for to carry me home.]

so you believed in one evening? how can that be?

Because Christ simply stepped into my life in a way that was more real and tangible than they world we live in.  If you read the book of Acts, there were many near instantaneous conversions.  I didn't go into that night of reading expecting anything to happen, in fact, what happened was so foreign to anything I had heard of or been taught, that I wondered if I were the only one on earth who had ever had such an experience.  But I quickly concluded, based on the fact that God commission to me to “go tell them the truth” wasn’t something that was going to change world events, that I was surely not the only one. I also wondered if it meant I was being called to become a pastor, but that wasn’t the instruction in my commission.

And, in the following weeks, by further reading the bible, I realized what had happened to me was common throughout the New Testament.   

[Swing low, sweet chariot. Comin' for to carry me home.]

Unlike jmfcst, the idea of entering Biblical study under the assumption that the Bible is true seems circular and absurd to me.  

But that's not what my testimony states.  rather I was basically an unbeliever when I entered that bible study.  I simply entered the bible study to determine whether or not my girlfriend's church (which even I could tell was very different than mainstream Christianity) was actually following the bible as they claimed to be.

The only assumption I made was that the only way for me to know whether or not they were following the bible was for me to examine their beliefs against the bible.

My attitude was, "It is time!".  That the moment had come in my life to seek truth.  So, I was actually looking for God, but I had no expectations and no idea what I was in for.

I think NOT being a member of a denomination at the time of my conversion, actually help me be bold enough to have confidence that one could pick up a bible and read it cold.  Now, don't get me wrong, I had attempted in the past to read bits of the bible, but it only seemed like I was sinking in a vast ocean that I couldn’t make heads or tails out of.  I previously was just reading, not knowing which book to read first.

But that night in my apartment was different, God was opening my eyes but I didn’t know it yet.  (I only had a HUGE King James bible, one of those hardback types that is like 10” x 15” and four inches thick, they were given these away about four years earlier at a Baptist church I attended for one or two services when I was dating a Baptist girl).  That night I started with the book of Galatians and it just started to click, I could see the writer attempting to make one single simple point by addressing the topic from many different angles and using many different examples, but the point of each example was the same, and the point of the book of Galatians repudiated my girlfriend’s church which had mixed the Law of Moses into their doctrine.

I don’t know how much time reading it took me to come to that conclusion, probably only an hour. I don’t think I even made it into the 4th chapter of Galatians.  (Maybe I did, I don’t remember ).   But once it was clear what Galatians was repeatedly saying, I realized the deception wasn’t being waged for no purpose, that there was something of value at stake to make the deception worthwhile.  And God enabled me to sense the battle going on the spiritual realm.  

It was THAT very awareness of warfare going on in the spiritual realm that caused me at that very moment to believe in Jesus Christ.  And I got up from the table where I was studying the bible and paced the carpet in my apartment living room with tears streaming down my face because I was overjoyed that I had come to believe.  And my mind raced through my history of contact with my girlfriend’s church, how years before I had subscribed to their free magazines being offered on their TV program “The World Tomorrow” and how I would later meet my best friend in college whose dad was a pastor in that very church.  And how through that friend in Sept ’91 that I met my girlfriend who attended that church and how immediately, from the first instant I laid eyes on her, without her saying a word and without her even looking at me, I felt a very strong spiritual attachment to her, like a very intense laser, that I had never felt before and couldn’t explain.  She live in Buffalo NY and had newly graduated from college, but since the recession was so bad in Buffalo and few jobs were available, she was taking a long vacation on a train with a girlfriend and was just visiting mutual friends in her church across the country.  They had stopped in Big Sandy TX where another girlfriend from Houston picked them up and brought them down to Houston for a visit.

(cont. in next post)

[Swing low, sweet chariot. Comin' for to carry me home.]

I kept tabs on her and she ended up finding a job in Houston and moving here a couple of months later in late ‘91.  I was dating Miss Teen Houston at the time, along with whoever else I wanted, but I made sure that our paths crossed and I would arrange group outings and made sure she was invited, and I was very interested in her, though I didn’t know why (she was very attractive, but pretty girls were a dime a dozen).  And I wrote her many letters over the next year that I never mailed, detailing my unexplained attraction to her and how I was totally convinced our paths were destined to be intertwined.  We didn’t start dating until Aug ’92 and immediately hit it off, but there was no kissing, no hugging, not even hand-holding.  I attempted NOTHING, which was very out of character for me because I was a user of women.

About three weeks into Oct 92, I gave her a large envelope as I dropped her off at her apartment after one of our dates.  Inside the envelope was all the letters that I had written her over the last year (which was strange because I could think of ZERO letters I had ever written another girl).  After I left, she opened it, not knowing what was in it.  She stayed up late into the night reading the letters, and when it became clear to her we were deeply falling in love, she confronted the fact that the math didn’t add up – she wasn’t suppose to be dating outside of her church.  What started off to her as an innocent dabbling outside of her church, was quickly spinning out of control.

So, she gave me a letter from her, outlining her dilemma.  I was very understanding, after all, I certainly didn’t want to continue down the road to marriage with a possible huge internal conflict as big as religion.  But my family was just pseudo-Christians and didn’t attend church.  And I had been reading material (though, just like the bible, none of it made sense to me) from her church for about 10 years and my best friends went to her church.  So, it would have been very easy for me to transition into her church, and I obviously had motive to do so.

So, I told her I would check it out, but I wanted to check it out on my own so that I could make a sincere decision – there was a relationship likely headed for marriage at stake – so this wasn’t a decision to make half-heartedly – if the decision wasn’t made out of sincerity, then it result in divorce down the road.  And since I was being extremely conservative with this relationship, because I valued her so highly, I wanted to remain completely honest with her.

And in my heart, I knew “it was time” to settle things in my own mind….so while pacing in my living room having just accepted belief in Christ, my whole 10 year history of contact with her church and my whole previously unexplained laser-like attraction to her raced through my mind, and I asked a question to myself, “Is that why all these things happened and why she was brought into my life, so that I would believe?”  And at that instant, I could fell every bone in my body, all 200 and something of them, and I stared down in amazement at my hands and feet, and in the center of my bones I could fell a fire ignited (but not painful), and the within a second or two, the fire radiated outward from the center of my bone, and traveled like a wave from the center of my bones to the surface of my bones and radiated outward consuming my whole flesh until it simultaneously reached the surface of my skin, causing my entire body to break out in goose bumps from head to toe.  And I stood there totally overwhelmed, looking down at my hands and feet, weeping and amazed.  And in that instance, God spoke to me in my heart and answered my question, “Yes, that is the reason why, now go and tell them the truth.”  

And I could sense that I was being lifted up and honored in front of the whole universe, both physical and spiritual.  I knew that I had been forgiven of my sins.  That I had died in that moment.  And that I no longer belonged to this world.  But I had never been taught of such an experience and didn’t know whether I was the only one in the world with such an experience or if there were others like me.  (I think the exact date was either the Tuesday 27th or Wednesday 28th of October 1992) And God revealed to me that Jesus was alive, and that he was alive in me, and I said in amazement, “He’s alive!”  And as I wept, I marveled and chucked at the numbness of the world’s point of view.

(cont. in next post)

[Swing low, sweet chariot. Comin' for to carry me home.]

But I did NOT want to go tell all my friends in that church (many of their fathers were either deacons or pastors of the church – God just happened to arrange it so that I was well known by many of the leadership) and my girlfriend that I had received a revelation contrary to what they were being taught and that their church was basically a cult.  I had been a guest in my friends house dozens upon dozens of time over the preceding 5 years and I was well known throughout their extended families.  Obviously, I knew they wouldn’t believe me and they’d think I went insane and it would basically make me their enemy.

So, I simply went about my business, enjoying my new life, pumped full of adrenaline, needing only two hours of sleep at night, and literally sprinting up the stairs to my apartment in order to dive into the bible as soon as I home from work.  I literally lived on 2 hours sleep per night for the next two weeks as I read all the New Testament and a good church of the Old Testament.  It’s the only thing I wanted to do.

The very next day after receiving the Holy Spirit, I was at work talking to a Christian woman who knew that I had started looking into my girlfriends church.  She was very worried that I would be sucked into it and asked how what was going on and what had happened (she could discern the change in me).  I tempted to tell her as we walked down the hall, but I got choked up and couldn’t finish and we were interrupted.  She would ask the next day, “What were you trying to tell me in the hallway yesterday?”  I told her everything that had happened, even about the fire in my bones, and how I didn’t know exactly what it meant except that I had received a spirit.  She said, “[jmfcst], that was the Holy Spirit!”  And I said, “I know”  And she wrote down some verses for me to look up that would explain to me what it all meant, and would even explain the fire in my bones. 

And as I read more and more in the next few days, I realized that everything that had happened to me was spelled out in the bible.  The ability to discern the warfare of the spiritual realm, the ability to understand scripture, the seemingly unintentional path to belief, the baptism of fire, the fire in the bones, the consumption of the flesh with fire, the receiving of the Spirit, the voice of God, the receiving of a commission to witness, having the conscience being wiped of the guilt of sin, dying to the world, being honored and exalted above the universe, being able to discern truths without having heard or read them, etc, etc, etc…it was all there.  It was nothing new.  It was just Jesus, who never changes, and who for 2000 years, had been pouring out similar gifts.

Within two days of my “anointing” from God, I think it was Friday after I got home from work and checked my mail, my girlfriend, who I was avoiding and I hadn’t attempted contact with, wrote me a letter saying she agreed we should cool it for a while until I checked things out and made my decision about her church.  Little did she know what decision I had came to.  But I was relieved when I got the letter and used it as just another excuse to avoid having to tell her the truth.  Now I had the whole weekend to enjoy my new life, and I place my friends in that church and my girlfriend way on the back-burner of my mind.

But that following Monday, I had a message on my answering machine when I arrived home from work.  It was my girlfriend, and she wasn’t happy where things left off between us.  And later that night, she called.  What I had attempted to avoid and run away from all week was now ringing my phone.  And, of course, I was unable to keep silent and everything came forth, like a dam being ruptured.   

It took 18 months to convert my girlfriend, when she could no longer ignore what she saw.  She could pick up the bible, take any book of the bible, read it herself, understand it, and without me having said a single word, her interpretation was in agreement with mine.  But, when she pick up the literature of her church, she would backtrack and feel forced to take their position out of fear, even though it wasn’t the conclusion she arrived at through her own study. Eventually, she could no longer deny the truth.

But those 18 months were intense.  I would attend her church with her (actually, most of the time I attended one of their congregations on the other side of town).  Their congregations were CLOSED to the public.  I had to write to Pasadena CA for permission to attend, and then I was mailed a phone number to call of one of their local pastors.  He checked me out over the phone before telling me where and when to go.  They took attendance at the door, writing down the names of all visitors and asking the purpose of their visit.  When wind of my opinion reached the leadership of the church, I was pulled before them and I explained I was open ears and open to conversion as long what they said was in agreement with the bible, which was all true.  And I told them honestly that I was having difficulty finding agreement with scripture, and that lead led to a whole other level of leadership and debate.  But since my story was so well known, and since I was engaged in at home bible studies with many of my friend in that church, and since I wasn’t causing disruption to their services, they didn’t bar me from attendance, and I soon gained more knowledge about their doctrine that 99% of its members (most churchgoers, even those in cults, don’t deeply study their church doctrine).  I read hundreds of older documents of the denomination that were published over the past 50 years.  I knew there past and present doctrine like the back of my hand, and I could sense a shift in doctrine (which the church simply tried to play off as a rewording but not a real change…Herbert Armstrong was already dead, and his hand-picked successor slowly changing beliefs set in stone, in an attempt to unwind the cultish views without losing the whole congregation).  And I would lay out to my fiends their own churches doctrine, to which they would agree.  Then I would explain to them the hidden intent of the change in wording and what the final intention was, to which they replied, “No way, they will never teach that!”

And, take my word for it, when dealing with a worldwide congregation of only around 100k (which is pretty small), it is easy to make waves when you cause ripples in the clear view of the leadership of a closely controlled church.  Both the leadership of the North and South congregations in Houston were involved.  And my girlfriend’s old pastor in Buffalo NY caught wind of it through members that knew her family.

My girlfriend was the first to leave her church out of all of those friends, she would become my wife within 3 months of leaving.  A few more friends would follow soon afterward.  But, a couple of years later, the church started to flatly admit to a change in their doctrine to become more mainstream, and admitted that they were previously wrong, just as I predicted they would to my friends.  This didn’t sit well with some and the denomination splintered into many pieces.  Many of my friends in that church headed off in different directions.  Those who left were angry that they had been deceived all those years by Herbert Armstrong.  And those who escaped and were saved marvel at those bible studies where I foolishly attempted to force feed scripture to them when they couldn’t digest it at the time.  I thought that since I received the Spirit in an hour of reading scripture, that everyone could do the same.  It took me a while to understand that every conversion experience is unique.

As you can see, I am still learning that lesson!

[Swing low, sweet chariot. Comin' for to carry me home.]

Besides "I was looking for God when I picked up the Bible," your testimonial doesn't really mentioned what (besides emotion and desire to find God) convinced you that the Bible is true and, say, the Quran isn't.

Well, Alcon, would it had made more sense to pick up a Koran for comparison when my girlfriend's church was claiming to follow the Bible?  Since they were claiming to follow to bible, since that is what they claimed was their measuring rod, that is what I picked to measure them by.

I had previously dated other religions, even an Indian Hindu (sp?).

I became convinced the bible was true when I received the Holy Spirit, and through that Spirit revealed many things to me that I had yet to read in the bible.  All doubt in the bible completely melted away.  IF it is possible to stand in the presence of God and still doubt his word, I surely don't know how.

---

The rest is interesting personal narrative, but none of it really addresses the question.  Although if your conversion was honestly just an emotional reaction or a spiritual "putting together of the pieces," that's fine, but you haven't really said.  Or maybe we just don't speak the same language on this.

I don't understand this question.

[Swing low, sweet chariot. Comin' for to carry me home.]

I became convinced the bible was true when I received the Holy Spirit, and through that Spirit revealed many things to me that I had yet to read in the bible.  All doubt in the bible completely melted away.  IF it is possible to stand in the presence of God and still doubt his word, I surely don't know how.

So, basically, you claim that you were given information about the Bible by God before you'd read it.  OK, that's an answer to the question.

not exactly...

I read a very small part of bible - 2.5 to 3.5 chapters>>>God opened my eyes to believe>>>>I believed and received the Holy Spirit>>>God gave me many experiences/revelations I had no prior knowledge of>>>>through later reading, I would find examples of those exact same experiences in the bible along with the bible's explanation of them.

Even the fact that those filled with the Holy Spirit can be given experiences and knowledge they have not previously learned is also prophesied:

Isa 52:14 14 Just as there were many who were appalled at him —
       his appearance was so disfigured beyond that of any man
       and his form marred beyond human likeness—
 15 so will he sprinkle many nations,
       and kings will shut their mouths because of him.
       For what they were not told, they will see,
       and what they have not heard, they will understand.

[Swing low, sweet chariot. Comin' for to carry me home.]

Coburn,

I have not spoken in tongues, though I know many who do and have.  And I do believe it still happens even in our day.  But not everyone receives the same gifts.

Holy Spirit = Holy Ghost

baptism in water = baptism in water.  It’s a human act.  A human response pledging a good conscience towards God, identifying with the death and resurrection of Jesus.

having your life transformed = the overall concept of baptism

receiving the Holy Spirit = born again = baptism of the Holy Spirit = baptism by fire. 

Basically, when you receive the Holy Spirit, you become "spirit possessed" (for lack of a better description) by the person of Jesus Christ, except that it doesn't take control of your actions, rather you have control over it, in that you can choose to obey it or not.   Jesus comes to live in your heart.  You become the temple of the Holy Spirit, which replaced the physical Temple in Jerusalem.   It transfers your citizenship from this world and gives you citizenship in Heaven.  It identifies you with Jesus Christ.  It condemns your old life and your flesh, and gives you a new life.

But, I can't give anyone a 12 step plan of how to receive the Holy Spirit.  It is a gift of God which can only be received by faith.  And faith itself is a gift of God.

The purpose of the fire is to consume your flesh so that you can take control of the desires of your flesh and offer your bodies to God as a spiritual sacrifice.  You basically become a living sacrifice whose body has already been consumed by fire.  That was the whole symbolism of the burnt offerings preformed in the old testament.

The tabernacle worship and arrangement basically symbolizes being born again.  I’m a little rusty to its meaning, but I think this is how it goes:  First, the sacrifice is killed (Jesus Christ), and the body of the sacrifice is then burned with fire (symbolizing being baptized by the spirit and the putting away of your flesh), then the priest (symbolizing the believer becoming a priest, which every spirit filled believer is) washes in the laver (symbolizing water baptism), then he is able to enter into the Holy of Holies (symbolizing reception of the Holy Spirit) and eat the bread (symbolizing being able to consume the word of God) ,with the incense burning (symbolize prayer and praise going up to God), and basking in the light of the candle stick (the truth of God).

Now the priest is also representative of Jesus, but, basically, through receiving Christ, you are able to enter into the presence of God (in the Holy of Holies) without dropping dead due to your sins, since your sins are now covered in the blood of Christ.

The intense feeling of being honored in front of all creation, both physical and spiritual, is also explained:

Ephesians 2:5 “God made us alive with Christ even when we were dead in transgressions. And God raised us up with Christ and seated us with him in the heavenly realms in Christ Jesus”

[Swing low, sweet chariot. Comin' for to carry me home.]

Thanks.  that is amazing and gives me much to think about.

Of course, I left off the main purpose of receiving the Holy Spirit.  It is to expose (circumcise) your heart to God, so that you can serve one another in love. That was forshadowed in physical circumcision of the Old Testament - removing the flesh in order to expose what lies underneath.   And, instead of being inclined toward self-gratification, your inclined towards "love, joy, peace, patience, kindness, goodness, faithfulness, gentleness and self-control." (Gal 5:23)

[Swing low, sweet chariot. Comin' for to carry me home.]

did you go to one?

Did I go to Jesus Camp?  Of course not.  Why?

well how would you know what they do then?

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Jesus_Camp

oh. that is creepy.

and it's NOTHING like my testimony

[Swing low, sweet chariot. Comin' for to carry me home.]

And being supposedly physically affected by your beliefs is...normal?

not only is it common, it is expected.

Acts 19:1 While Apollos was at Corinth, Paul took the road through the interior and arrived at Ephesus. There he found some disciples 2and asked them, "Did you receive the Holy Spirit when you believed?" They answered, "No, we have not even heard that there is a Holy Spirit."

[Swing low, sweet chariot. Comin' for to carry me home.]

And being supposedly physically affected by your beliefs is...normal?

not only is it common, it is expected.

Acts 19:1 While Apollos was at Corinth, Paul took the road through the interior and arrived at Ephesus. There he found some disciples 2and asked them, "Did you receive the Holy Spirit when you believed?" They answered, "No, we have not even heard that there is a Holy Spirit."

Which leads me back to my original point.  It is disturbing that this kind of thing not only flies without question, it's expected of people.  Not that that quote even says anything about physical manifestations of these beliefs.  The people you see speaking in tongues are deeply disturbing as well.  These are things people we label insane do yet as long as it is done in the name of the Lord it's totally normal.  It's all monkey see, monkey do and it's scary.

not sure what you are calling "physical manifestations" - the receiving of the Holy Spirit or the gift of tongues, but BOTH were present in that passage:

Acts 19:2They answered, "No, we have not even heard that there is a Holy Spirit."
 3So Paul asked, "Then what baptism did you receive?"
      "John's baptism," they replied.

 4Paul said, "John's baptism was a baptism of repentance. He told the people to believe in the one coming after him, that is, in Jesus." 5On hearing this, they were baptized into the name of the Lord Jesus. 6When Paul placed his hands on them, the Holy Spirit came on them, and they spoke in tongues and prophesied. 7There were about twelve men in all.

[Swing low, sweet chariot. Comin' for to carry me home.]

That quote references it, but regardless it's insanity and a bad case of monkey-see monkey-do.

But, you're forgetting my testimony - that I was NOT aware of any of that before it happened to me.  I was so unaware of it, that I pondered that night if I were the only one in the world.  (So, your "monkey-see monkey-do" argument doesn't hold water!!!)  But what I would find out within a week is that all the things made known to me that night were already written about thousands of years ago!  The bible perfectly described and explained it.  Sometimes, the wording used was verbatim to how I described it:

Jer 20:9 "His word is in my heart like a fire, a fire shut up in my bones."

Lam 1:13 "From on high he sent fire, sent it down into my bones"

Luke 3:16 (John the Baptist speaking of Jesus) "He will baptize you with the Holy Spirit and with fire."

[Swing low, sweet chariot. Comin' for to carry me home.]

It's really irrelevant what the bible says about it since I consider that equally as unlikely as your story

That is NOT what you said.  You said it was a case of "monkey-see-monkey-do."… I can have the forum moderator read your comments back to you if you'd like...  You said, "monkey-see-monkey-do."  I said, "I was NOT aware of any of that before it happened to me." And now you contend that "it's really irrelevant what the bible says"?!

Can you explain that?

If it really is a case of "monkey-see-monkey-do,” then why was there the need for you to ignore the bible?  Why did you see a need to change from “a case of monkey-see-monkey-do” to “it's really irrelevant what the bible says“? 

Can you explain your contradictory opinions?

The truth is there was no "monkey-see-monkey-do”, isn’t that correct?  And when it became clear I had not read those portions of the bible, you cut your "monkey-see-monkey-do” theory loose.  You doctored your opinion and claimed "it's really irrelevant what the bible says".

What happened to me alone in my apartment the moment I believed was exactly, down to each explicit detail, what the bible prophesied God would do for believers.  And you really can not speak intelligently on any of these matters.  You can't handle the truth.  Isn’t that right, fezzyfestoon?!

[Swing low, sweet chariot. Comin' for to carry me home.]

It's really irrelevant what the bible says about it since I consider that equally as unlikely as your story

That is NOT what you said.  You said it was a case of "monkey-see-monkey-do."… I can have the forum moderator read your comments back to you if you'd like...  You said, "monkey-see-monkey-do."  I said, "I was NOT aware of any of that before it happened to me." And now you contend that "it's really irrelevant what the bible says"?!

Can you explain that?

If it really is a case of "monkey-see-monkey-do,” then why was there the need for you to ignore the bible?  Why did you see a need to change from “a case of monkey-see-monkey-do” to “it's really irrelevant what the bible says“? 

Can you explain your contradictory opinions?

The truth is there was no "monkey-see-monkey-do”, isn’t that correct?  And when it became clear I had not read those portions of the bible, you cut your "monkey-see-monkey-do” theory loose.  You doctored your opinion and claimed "it's really irrelevant what the bible says".

What happened to me alone in my apartment the moment I believed was exactly, down to each explicit detail, what the bible prophesied God would do for believers.  And you really can not speak intelligently on any of these matters.  You can't handle the truth.  Isn’t that right, fezzyfestoon?!

fezzyfestoon, I hope you enjoyed my "A Few Good Men" impersonation.   But, regardless of the tone, I think my argument is valid.

[Swing low, sweet chariot. Comin' for to carry me home.]

I said you only tell this story because it's supposed to happen and regardless of what the bible says, it did not.

so, you're accusing me of making up a story and being part of a conspiracy?!

It is said that in every decent crime there are 50 ways to get caught, and that the perpetrator is a genius if he can think of 25 of them.  So, certainly, if such an intricate story was made up by little ole me, there should be some obvious mistake or contradiction. 

So, exactly, what part of my story is made up?  Do you doubt I used to watch The Worldwide Church of God’s TV program “The World Tomorrow” in the wee hours of the mourning because we did not have cable and that was about the only thing on very late at night?  Do you doubt that as a teenager I subscribed to their “Plain Truth” magazine, ordered their free book “The United States and Great Britain in Prophecy”, ordered their “Ambassador Bible Study Course”?  Do you doubt that I met a guy in college who became one of my best friends, and that during one of the first visits to his house I saw the Plain Truth magazine lying around, to which responded, “Hey, I take that magazine”, which led him to explain that he went to that church and his dad was a pastor in that church?

Do you doubt that I lived in an apartment in the The Woodlands from 1990 to 1994?  Do you doubt I owned a King James bible that I received from dating a Baptist girl in the late ‘80s?  Do you doubt I met a girl through that friend in the World Wide Church of God?  Do you doubt I feel in love with her?  Do you doubt that I ended up marrying her?  Do you doubt we have four kids?

What possible motive would I have had to go to a girl that I was in love with, whom I valued so much that I didn’t even attempt to hold hands with her, that I would make up such a story and tell her that I had a word from God that she and members of her family and all my closest friends were deceived by their Church that was the center of their lives?!

You are more than welcome to come to Houston and verify the story if you’d like.  You can meet my family (mother and brothers), wife (the girlfriend in the story) and kids.  You can meet some of the friends who used to go to that church, and they will tell how my testimony exactly matches everything that I did during that time, they will tell you about how I went to them and gave my testimony which they originally rejected.  They can tell you how my life was completely turned upside down and how all my friendships, work/family/friends were shaken.

To say that I made up the story just doesn’t make since, for they can testify that I knew NOTHING about the bible and how they did NOT teach anything matching my experience and how it would have been so much easier to go along with their church since my closest friends and girlfriend already went there.

So, exactly, whom was I trying to please by making up such a story?!

Dude, you are forgetting that my whole life, prior to 1992, and since 1992, is defined by that pivotal night late in October 1992 when I met Christ alone in my apartment.  The testimony I told you is the EXACT same testimony that I’ve given to everyone in my life, everyone prior to 1992 and after 1992.

The simple fact is: YOU, though lacking any evidence to the contrary, have much more motive to dismiss my story than I had to make up such a story!!! 

[Swing low, sweet chariot. Comin' for to carry me home.]

And everyone around you already believed it before you even told them....The motive to tell such a story is to woo people into believing there must be a God.

[/quote]

So, I made up a story to woo those who already believed in God into believing in God?!

That doesn’t make sense.  And, I’ve already told you that they did NOT believe me, NOR had they been taught what I was telling them.  Basically – they believed NEITHER me NOR my message.

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You didn't make it up, it was already made up. …It's a social thing; monkey-see monkey-do.  When people are a part of a social group, they can convince themselves that what they're being told is true to be accepted.  It's not conscious, it just happens.

Dude, I was raised Catholic, which doesn’t preach the style of conversion I received.  But my family stopped going to church after I was about 7 or 8 years old, after which I probably averaged only one church visit per year, if that….Which is why the experience was so foreign to anything I had heard, that I pondered if I were the only one on earth with such an experience!!!

So, in what “social group” was I?  You’re attempting to place my story in a context that I was NOT a part of.  In fact, I didn’t find a church to attend until 5 months AFTER I was saved.  So, it was 5 months before I even found a “social group” that accepted my experience!

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But, in giving my attitude on this forum some thought.  I have concluded I am lording my relationship with Christ over many unbelievers on this forum.  Maybe it’s the impersonal nature of the internet, maybe it’s my overreaction to the baseless taunts of unbelievers.  But, regardless, I have no excuse.

A byproduct of witnessing is that the story becomes somewhat about the witness, instead of the subject of what was witnessed.  It’s a natural byproduct since the life of the witness have been impacted in a positive way.  But, all too often, my approach – my willingness to continue the debate – is counterproductive.

Obviously, I do not feel like I deserved to have been chosen by God, because God’s choice of me was not about me, rather it was about God – God wanted to pick something lowly like me in order to show what was done in me was of God.

Even though I can not cleanly separate myself completely from the subject of God – since it is through me that God chose to echo his message – I should do more to minimize myself and elevate God more in these discussions.

So, the invitation to come to Houston still stands.  All I can tell you is my “social group” PRIOR to my conversion, and my “social group” AFTER my conversion are two completely different types of groups.  My life changed when God stepped into it.  God changed my life, hence the change in “social group”.

I apologize for my eagerness to debate vigorously.  It’s counter-productive given the audience of this forum.  It’s just that, once an unbeliever like you has rejected the word of God, I can only offer you the substance of my life for you to examine.   Because, only in the evidence of my life, can I prove to you that God is real.

If you were here with me in person, then you could see how God has changed my life and how everything I was told you is true, and then all this counterproductive debate could cease.  As it is, the “social group” you’re attempting to identify me with simply was NOT present in my life prior to my conversion and did not enter my life until 5 months afterward. 

And as intricate and detailed as my testimony is, you won’t find a single thing in contradiction, for my testimony is NOT a product of myself, NOR is it a product of my doctrine since I had no doctrine at the time of my conversion.  If I had made the story up, then I would be afraid to have it examined.

As it is, I regard any examination of the truthfulness of the details of my testimony with as much anxiety as I would someone examining the description of my house to see if I really lived at the address where I say I lived.  To me, our house that we had built and lived in since 1996 is a trivial matter of fact that I live and breathe everyday and is a part of me that is known by hundreds of people.

So, feel free to examine every brick of my testimony, because the accuracy of the description of my life is a near effortless task on my part.

[Swing low, sweet chariot. Comin' for to carry me home.]

FezzyFestoon,

I understand how you feel – I spent the first 25 years of my life in unbelief.

I go to an inter-denominational church, Grace Christian Family Center, in Tomball, Texas.  Our pastor was raised in a denomination that claimed to have Christ exclusively – as if there was no other path to salvation outside of their denomination.  If I remember his story correctly, he was saved at 18 and was quite a punk before that and even busted a hole in the sheetrock at his parents house in an drunken rage of an attempt to scare his dad by swinging inches from his face. 

He was drafted not long after being saved, and was only 1 of 3 out of a boot camp class of about 200 to go to Vietnam.  Of the 3 that went, 2 volunteered to go to Nam, he was the only one ordered to go to Nam.  His drill sergeant didn’t like the fact he was a devout Christian and sent him to Cu Chi, Vietnam to end his life – right along side the Ho Chi Minh trail.  His drill sergeant knew how to pick ‘em – that base got hit every single night he was there.  (there’s a lot written about the Cu Chi tunnels and how dangerous it was to be based there, google it sometime if you have the chance)

Soon after arriving at base camp, my pastor attended a chapel service where the sermon was laced with profanity because the Chaplin wanted to show the boys that they didn’t have to remain clean in order to still be a Christian,  My pastor was disgusted by it and attempted to hold an off-hour prayer service in the dirt floor Chapel just for the boys, but the Chaplin wouldn’t allow it. 

So, my pastor went to the commanding officer (forgot the title, I think it was the Inspector General) of the base camp, who happened not to like the Chaplin.  The I.G. asked my pastor if he had had any training, which he had not.  Then the I.G. told him to write back home and have them send something that looked official.  So he wrote his pastor stateside and his pastor sent a hand written certificate stating that he was a “Licensed Christian Worker”.  The I.G. loved it and laughed hard, “This is PERFECT!  Follow me.”  He followed the I.G. down to the Chaplin office, the I.G. told the secretary to sit down and not to bother to inform the Chaplin, and burst into the Chaplin’s office and plopped the certificate down on his desk and told him to give my pastor the Chapel for one hour every Thursday night.   

My pastor planned to introduce the doctrine of his church and convert all the Christian boys to his denomination.  When he realized they were entrenched as he was, the compromise was just to read a couple of verses where everyone gave his opinion and then to pray for one another.  Some of those whose turn it was to go on patrol that night handed over letters to their parents in case they didn’t return alive.  So they would cry and pray for each other for God to forgive their sins and bring them back safely.  Some didn’t live to see another day.  It was during such times that the denominational battle lines would melt away.  My pastor saw many of those boys, from almost every major Christian denomination, receive the Holy Spirit.  This confused my pastor because he was led to believe that only his denomination had the Holy Spirit.

So, to make a long story short – my pastor’s first introduction to a nondenominational service was in Vietnam.  He would later leave denominationalism altogether and realize that his going to Vietnam was God's choosing.  And since I found Christ in my own apartment, not even belonging to any church, inter-denominationalism seems natural to me.

[Swing low, sweet chariot. Comin' for to carry me home.]

It is most unfortunate that you appear to be dismissive of nearly everyone elses spiritual experiences on this forum.

when have I ever done that?  In fact, just brousing the first page of this thread, I did find this, which I DO ACCEPT:

No Hallmark Channel special for me.

I was baptised Catholic. And I went to Catholic schools from ages 5-18. I had nothing to rebel against, as the Catholicism I was steeped in, was that of my family and of my Jesuit school environment; it was always non judgemental but self critical. Asking questions of and getting damn well pissed off at the Church was probably part of that. I have a connection with Catholicism and the Catholic rite, but I am distrustful of the hierachy and the Vatican; my connection with individual churches and priests is at a purely local and personal level.