SENATE BILL: Ukrainian Technical, Economical and Military Aid (Debating)

[Deus Naturae]

Why did TNF's amendment fail so badly? Section 1 of this bill is totally ridiculous. Why would we ever spend money tracking down the stolen assets of a corrupt Ukrainian leader when there are far more corrupt governments all over the world?  Why are we trying to micromanage Ukraine's economy when there are much poorer countries all over the world? I mean, really, what need is there to spend taxpayer money "diversifying Ukrainian trade?" Where is this money coming from anyway?

[Deus Naturae]

Why did TNF's amendment fail so badly? Section 1 of this bill is totally ridiculous. Why would we ever spend money tracking down the stolen assets of a corrupt Ukrainian leader when there are far more corrupt governments all over the world?  Why are we trying to micromanage Ukraine's economy when there are much poorer countries all over the world? I mean, really, what need is there to spend taxpayer money "diversifying Ukrainian trade?" Where is this money coming from anyway?

Oh, boy, it seems we're going to have a lot of disagreements should you get elected, Deus, xD

If you wish to track down other corrupt governments and help other poor countries I invite you to write a bill regarding that issue, but in this moment my concern is Ukraine due to the geopolitical and strategical situation and because I believe it's important to contain Russia and prevent them from taking over the country (we did committ ourselves to defend their integrity in the 1990's after all). This money is coming from our budget, and I certainly don't feel the need to point out exactly where it comes from. I am very concerned about our budget, truly, and once that discussion arrives I'll work hard to make sure this is not an extra burden for the government. But I am more than willing to spend our money in the foreign stage in order to achieve results, and right now I am interested in achieving positive results in Ukraine. Leaving things alone so they can sort out the issue themselves is a poor choice to take, I believe, specially when our intervention could help that nation.

What does tracking down Yanukovych's stolen goodies have to do with "containing Russia?" How can the money come from "our budget" when we don't have a budget surplus (or so I'm told)? If this bill is successful, we would need to borrow the money, and if we did we would have to use some sort of borrowing instrument (such as a Treasury bond). You need to decide what that is before you pass this bill. Also, what does "diversifying Ukrainian trade" have to do with "containing Russia" or "defending Ukrainian integrity?"

[Deus Naturae]

Why did TNF's amendment fail so badly? Section 1 of this bill is totally ridiculous. Why would we ever spend money tracking down the stolen assets of a corrupt Ukrainian leader when there are far more corrupt governments all over the world?  Why are we trying to micromanage Ukraine's economy when there are much poorer countries all over the world? I mean, really, what need is there to spend taxpayer money "diversifying Ukrainian trade?" Where is this money coming from anyway?

Oh, boy, it seems we're going to have a lot of disagreements should you get elected, Deus, xD

If you wish to track down other corrupt governments and help other poor countries I invite you to write a bill regarding that issue, but in this moment my concern is Ukraine due to the geopolitical and strategical situation and because I believe it's important to contain Russia and prevent them from taking over the country (we did committ ourselves to defend their integrity in the 1990's after all). This money is coming from our budget, and I certainly don't feel the need to point out exactly where it comes from. I am very concerned about our budget, truly, and once that discussion arrives I'll work hard to make sure this is not an extra burden for the government. But I am more than willing to spend our money in the foreign stage in order to achieve results, and right now I am interested in achieving positive results in Ukraine. Leaving things alone so they can sort out the issue themselves is a poor choice to take, I believe, specially when our intervention could help that nation.

What does tracking down Yanukovych's stolen goodies have to do with "containing Russia?" How can the money come from "our budget" when we don't have a budget surplus (or so I'm told)? If this bill is successful, we would need to borrow the money, and if we did we would have to use some sort of borrowing instrument (such as a Treasury bond). You need to decide what that is before you pass this bill. Also, what does "diversifying Ukrainian trade" have to do with "containing Russia" or "defending Ukrainian integrity?"

Tracking down the stolen assets serves to help the current Ukrainian government with their work, and I am convinced it's a good idea to lend them our help in that issue.

Why are you convinced of such a strange conclusion? What does tracking down the assets by a corrupt oligarch have to with anything? How would finding this stuff (how would that even happen anyway, wouldn't most of his assets be in a private bank account somewhere under a fake name?) improve the strategic position of Atlasia or even Ukraine?

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What's stopping Ukraine from buying oil and energy from Europe, Atlasia, or the Middle East? How will handing them taxpayer money solve this problem?

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What "calculations" are you talking about? If you want to engage in $9.5 billion worth of deficit spending, you need to borrow $9.5 billion from somewhere. What's so complex about that?

[Deus Naturae]

Why are people voting Nay on this when the sponsor still has yet to explain why handing Ukraine taxpayer money to "diversify trade" is necessary or how it will even work?

[Deus Naturae]

Why are people voting Nay on this when the sponsor still has yet to explain why handing Ukraine taxpayer money to "diversify trade" is necessary or how it will even work?

Not to dimish the importance of what we're doing, Deus, but Atlasia does allow us to be less specific than in real life. This bill was born by adapting a piece of legislation from OTL America, which ironically had no explanation of what "diversify trade" meant. My understanding of it? The economy of Ukraine is currently suffering from being too centered around a few exportations with Russia being a major part of said market, which means that just like with the energy and gas prices they can strangle Ukraine economically. I have no intention in seeing Ukraine becoming an economic puppet in light of the weakened state of the economy, which is why I had the intention of providing some minor help to Ukraine in order to avoid that undesirable outcome. One could say people are quite opposed to anything that involves foreign spending lately, and I'm quite concerned about that.

EDIT: I removed a rather nonsensical phrase, sorry about that.

Again, why is Ukraine so dependent on Russia for energy supplies? What's preventing them from buying from elsewhere? The fact that real-life politicians chose not to specify any definition either doesn't exactly reassure me. I'm sorry, but it just doesn't seem like this money is going to be put to good use (and I still have no idea what that use would even be) if you use such vague language. Like most of the money we distribute to to foreign countries, this will likely end up in the pockets of corrupt bureaucrats and other cronies.

[Deus Naturae]

Again, why is Ukraine so dependent on Russia for energy supplies? What's preventing them from buying from elsewhere?

Pipeline capacity would limit their imports from other sources even if it this oil were not significantly more expensive than the usual prices that the Russians set for Ukraine.

Alright, that makes sense. How will this aid remedy this problem?

[Deus Naturae]

I thank the Vice President for executing the duties of his office faithfully and standing on the side of justice for the people of Ukraine .

How will this help the Ukrainian people? The supporters of this bill still have yet to give an explanation for what this aid will actually be used for and how it will benefit Ukraine...

[Deus Naturae]

I like Shua's amendment. I don't think I'll be voting for this at any rate (it conflicts with my anti-imperialist principles) but I do support watering it down as much as possible, given that the author of this bill would be just fine with sending Atlasian soldiers to die in defense of the Ukrainian regime.

And you would just fine with condemning Ukraine to economic slavery and continous revolts funded by pro-Russian events. Although I should point out I never spoke about sending actual combat troops, but facts don't seem to matter a lot these days...

Even assuming that dependence on Russia for energy supplies is equivalent to "economic slavery," you still have yet to explain how this aid would liberate Ukraine.