SENATE BILL: Ukrainian Technical, Economical and Military Aid (Debating)

[Deus Naturae]

I like Shua's amendment. I don't think I'll be voting for this at any rate (it conflicts with my anti-imperialist principles) but I do support watering it down as much as possible, given that the author of this bill would be just fine with sending Atlasian soldiers to die in defense of the Ukrainian regime.

And you would just fine with condemning Ukraine to economic slavery and continous revolts funded by pro-Russian events. Although I should point out I never spoke about sending actual combat troops, but facts don't seem to matter a lot these days...

Even assuming that dependence on Russia for energy supplies is equivalent to "economic slavery," you still have yet to explain how this aid would liberate Ukraine.

[TNF]

I like Shua's amendment. I don't think I'll be voting for this at any rate (it conflicts with my anti-imperialist principles) but I do support watering it down as much as possible, given that the author of this bill would be just fine with sending Atlasian soldiers to die in defense of the Ukrainian regime.

And you would just fine with condemning Ukraine to economic slavery and continous revolts funded by pro-Russian events. Although I should point out I never spoke about sending actual combat troops, but facts don't seem to matter a lot these days...

Even assuming that dependence on Russia for energy supplies is equivalent to "economic slavery," you still have yet to explain how this aid would liberate Ukraine.

Don't hold your breath on that, comrade. Hawks never do.

[President Tyrion]

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This amendment Tyrion.

1) Why deleting the Preamble, Tyrion? There is nothing controversial. Maybe you're openly backing the annexation of Crimea by Russia?

2) Why deleting section 1? I don't see how this is controversial.

3) Why deleting the "unity part". How is this controversial? Are you supporting a divided Ukraine? What's the problem with this part?

4) What's the problem with the former section 2 point 2? In which way helping the Ukrainians to face the problems with gaz is controversial?

5) And finallyn, why cutting the aid by 1B? 1 Billion represents absolutely nothing in term of spending for Atlasia (our spending= something like 2000B???). But for Ukraine, it is important 1B.
So why constantly cutting the aid? I honestly just see a reason: Ukrainophobia.


I would like to remind all of you, and especially you Tyrion, that Russia is far worse than Israel on minority matters. Yep, Russia passed recently anti gay laws for isntance. And ti's better not to be in ethnic minority (like Georgian,...) if you want to save your life. Russia is far worse than Israel for that.

Considering you voted for the TNF plan, completely ending any economic relations with Israel (=economic sanctions) few weeks ago, a plan much more agressive than the Lumine's plan. So I would like to know, why constantly voting for these amendments, especially because you supported something much more aggressive against Israel few weeks ago?

And please,
1) The Ukrainian resistance isn't nazi.
2) And yep, spending can be hijacked by criminals. That doesn't mean cutting is the right thing to do. The best is to improve a bit (like watching seriously how this would be spent,...). I mean, every government spending can be hijacked by corrupt people. Does that mean the atlasian government spendings shall be cut entirely? I'm sure, considering your party, you don't support that .

I don't understand your concerns with this bill:
1) There is no miitary intervention
2) and there isn't even economic sanctions against Russia.

Thanks for the clarification, Mr. Vice President.

1) The preamble isn't necessary for the body of the bill to work. Consider it neutral, in the sense that I'd vote for "good" amendment (meaning one that has parts I would support) with and without that preamble being cut out.

2) I'm not sure why Atlasia needs to be policing every case of international corruption. I certainly agree with the sentiment that corruption is bad, but we don't always need to be policing everything. With that said, if this specific clause passed, I would not lose any sleep.

3) I do support unity, but that phrase is unnecessarily vague, and more narrative than legislation. In other words, it's something I'd say this legislation is intended to do regardless of whether it's in the text or not. But, again, it being in the text wouldn't make me lose any sleep.

4) We should not be in the business of managing Ukraine's economy. Atlasia hasn't reached energy independence from Russia; why should we expect a much smaller nation to be able to do so? If it serves Ukraine's best interests to acquire whatever they need from Russia, so be it. As long as it's their decision, I frankly don't think it matters. 

5) Certainly, $1 billion is not going to make or break the budget, but I don't really see any particular need for this in the budget. I would have supported a larger cut, if offered.

Russia is a dreadful country for civil rights; don't get me wrong. But nothing that the particular amendment cut out had much to do with Russia being, to put it bluntly, a terrible excuse for a developed country.

[windjammer]

Thank you for your answer Senator Tyrion.

[Cincinnatus]

So I shall break the tie:

Seriously, I'm saddened to see that 4 senators missed the vote. Well, this is a problem with communication I guess. You were probably unaware there was a vote.
So, first reform I will do: I will PM all of you when I will open a vote! 

The topic title was not updated when Cincy opened the vote, that is why it was missed by so many people.

PMs will probably be necessary, especailly where bills where we cannot update the thread topic titles between us like this one started by Cincy (Cincy seems to be rather detached, his response to my last PM was that he was retired adn something about his lawn).

I used to send out PMs, rather sadistic and creepy ones to get people's attention. People began to not appreciate them and even grumple about them and twoards the end of last year once Gass, Nappy and Xahar had left, it didn't appear to be necessary as people were voting rather regularly and so I stopped. I should have started again in March.

Send me a PM with what the titles need to be changed to and I'll do it, when I actually see it.  Other than that, I have no ability to do anything for you in an official capacity.  Amendment votes are on windjammer now.

[🐒Gods of Prosperity🔱🐲💸]

So, what is the status of my amendment?

[Lumine]

So, what is the status of my amendment?

Well, I declared it friendly, and as objection time passed a couple of hours ago Windjammer should post here pretty soon.

[Southern Senator North Carolina Yankee]

Since Lumine is friendly to shua's amendment,

Senator, you have until July 07, 2014, 10:18:25 pm to object to shua's amendment.

Yea Windjammer can call it as passed ^

[windjammer]

So, what is the status of my amendment?

Don't worry shua! When this is 10pm in Virginian, this is something like 5am in France, so I was just sleeping, I don't forget you .

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Without any objection, shua's amendment passes.
I, Windjammer, President of the Senate, certify these results are accurate.

[DemPGH]

Section 2.2 is reasonable and is probably a good idea.

Section 2.1 and $5 billion dollars I'm not certain of. Do we have any way of knowing that that will achieve the desired result? It seems to me that you would need a lot of people (are they civilian, are they military?) to ensure all that happens. What standards are there? I'm completely opposed to sending military personnel into Ukraine at this time. You don't pour people and money into a turmoil-ridden situation because we're Atlasia and all problems go poof.

2.1.1 seems rather overboard to me, but I'll need to research the situation and the Act to which that applies.

At any rate, the cumulative effort at this moment in time includes: Bomb Iraq, do ALL of this for Ukraine, and allow private businesses to run guns overseas (by repealing the End to Imperialism Act). One would think this had suddenly become a war games simulator!

[Lumine]

Section 2.2 is reasonable and is probably a good idea.

Section 2.1 and $5 billion dollars I'm not certain of. Do we have any way of knowing that that will achieve the desired result? It seems to me that you would need a lot of people (are they civilian, are they military?) to ensure all that happens. What standards are there? I'm completely opposed to sending military personnel into Ukraine at this time. You don't pour people and money into a turmoil-ridden situation because we're Atlasia and all problems go poof.

2.1.1 seems rather overboard to me, but I'll need to research the situation and the Act to which that applies.

At any rate, the cumulative effort at this moment in time includes: Bomb Iraq, do ALL of this for Ukraine, and allow private businesses to run guns overseas (by repealing the End to Imperialism Act). One would think this had suddenly become a war games simulator!

I mean no disrespect, but one could think the administration is going idealistic as well, Mr. President, xD

Why is such a bad thing to actually do something in the foreign stage (with the exception of Superique's efforts and accomplishments) that doesn't involve speeches and wishful thinking? Yes, I think we should do ALL of this for Ukraine and more if we want to stand up for our ally and prove that we are willing to help beyond offering some words and minor actions to dissuade Russia, and I also think trying to fight ISIS is a good objective (and it's certainly not about bombing Iraq to the ground like Senator Griffin suggested or putting boots on the ground like Senator TNF believes). Atlasia seems to have gained a fear to do what's can and should be done to instead focus on domestic policy or in going after policies with idealistic objectives that end up becoming a nuisance, like the End to Imperialism Act.

Of course, it's up to the SoEA and the Administration to use these resources as I have explained, and while I very much doubt military training personnel will be considered as an option, I hope the administration will be willing to send civilians to work on this. I don't believe helping the Tatars is an overboard idea, these people are being prosecuted and discriminated in Crimea and if we can help them, I believe we should. In all fairness, if people think using our resources is a bad thing, then what are we supposed to do? Leave Ukraine to fend off by themselves when we could do something to help a nation with which we have a signed commitment? Problems won't go poof as well if we do nothing.

[President Tyrion]

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[windjammer]

Senator Lumine, friendly or hostile?

[Lumine]

Friendly. I'm fine with making modifications like this so we can get this passed with greater numbers, it's the amendments that strike down entire sections the ones that drive me insane, xD

[windjammer]

Senators, you have until July 11,2014, 9:45:11 am to object to Tyrion's amendment.

[TNF]

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[/quote]

[Lumine]

Senator TNF has a small point in my mistake in putting "United States" instead of Atlasia, but this is obviously a hostile amendment.

[windjammer]

Please Lumine, wait for the end of the other amendment before saying you're hostile or not .

[Southern Senator North Carolina Yankee]

At least he's is responding early as opposed to late on the matter.

[windjammer]

Without any objection, Tyrion's amendment passes.

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I, Windjammer, President of the Senate, certify these results are accurate.

[windjammer]

Senator Lumine, friendly or hostile to senator TNF's amendment? ()

[Lumine]

You know, I think TNF may actually be right in his sensible amend... Hostile!

[windjammer]

Senators, you have 24 hours, before I start a vote.

[H.E. VOLODYMYR ZELENKSYY]

I was told there was a vote now, but there is none. I suppose I'll just state my opposition to tactics like those of a certain colleague.

[windjammer]

ARRRRRRRRRRRRRGH Sorry! The veto override isn't in this thread! I will soon resend a PM to all the senators!