Russia-Ukraine war and related tensions Megathread

[jaichind]

https://www.pravda.com.ua/eng/news/2023/07/12/7410958/

"Ukraine's Foreign Minister hopes F-16s will appear in Ukrainian skies early next year"

[Virginiá]

Cruise missiles allowing Ukrainians to continue depopulating the Russian high command

https://twitter.com/bayraktar_1love/status/1679123335265828865

[jaichind]

https://www.politico.eu/article/ukraine-show-gratitude-west-support-ben-wallace-nato/

"Ukraine must show ‘gratitude’ to the West to keep support, UK defense minister warns"



More making friends and influencing people in action, only this time from the UK.

[Storr]

In Putin's Russia vacation takes you:

https://twitter.com/NOELreports/status/1679094456249729032?s=20

[Oleg 🇰🇿🤝🇺🇦]

https://www.politico.eu/article/ukraine-show-gratitude-west-support-ben-wallace-nato/

"Ukraine must show ‘gratitude’ to the West to keep support, UK defense minister warns"



More making friends and influencing people in action, only this time from the UK.

Headline manipulation. The article itself evokes the opposite impression. If you really want to know about "making friends and influencing people", you could read the channel of the Deputy Chairman of the Security Council of the Russian Federation. Here are the last three posts, for example (machine translation):

https://t.me/medvedev_telegram/351

Sleepy senile Biden said that two years ago in Geneva he denied the President of Russia guarantees that Ukraine would not join NATO.  Like "I’m done, I didn’t cave in to the Russians!"

Then, however, he shamefully fled from Afghanistan.  Then, to hide the shame, he ruined the economy of Europe.  Subsequently, having delivered hundreds of tons of weapons to Ukraine, he unleashed an extremely dangerous protracted conflict with Russia, as a result of which the Kiev regime is destroying the remnants of its country.  Now, having exhausted all resources, he promises cluster charges and again beckons neo-Nazis in Kyiv with the NATO perspective, the realization of which means a third world war.

Why is he doing this?
The easiest way is to think that this is the course of any American leader and US deep government: to dominate and limit other countries.  Especially obstinate ones like ours.

You can also say that he is a sick old man who is in severe dementia.  Like he doesn't know what he's doing.  Trump and a large part of Americans are screaming about this.

Or maybe everything is different?  Maybe the dying old man, obsessed with unhealthy fantasies, simply decided to leave gracefully, provoking nuclear Armageddon and taking half of humanity with him to the next world ...

https://t.me/medvedev_telegram/352

If an attempt to attack the Smolensk (Desnogorsk) NPP with NATO missiles is confirmed, it is necessary to consider the scenario of a simultaneous Russian strike on the South Ukrainian NPP, Rovno NPP and Khmelnitsky NPP, as well as on nuclear facilities in Eastern Europe.  There is nothing to be ashamed of here.

https://t.me/medvedev_telegram/353

Preliminary results of the NATO summit.
 Just like we thought:

1. Action Plan for Ukraine's membership in the Alliance (MAP) - cancel.  Kind of take it faster.

 2. To call the "404 country" to NATO.  But they will accept - it is not known when and under what conditions.

 Quite possibly never.  And that's what realists in the Alliance are afraid to say out loud.

3. To increase military assistance to the Kyiv regime.  Everything that is possible: rockets, cluster charges, airplanes.
 The completely crazy West could not come up with anything else.  Predictability of the highest level, to the point of idiocy.  In fact, it's a dead end.  World War III is getting closer.

 What does all this mean for us?  Everything is obvious.

The special military operation will continue with the same goals.

 One of them is the refusal of the Kyiv Nazi group from membership in NATO, which we insisted on from the very beginning (which is impossible).

This means that this group will have to be eliminated (which is possible and necessary).

P.S. It was reported that Tokmak was shelled with cluster munitions.  So, it's time to uncover our arsenals of this inhumane weapon.

[Storr]

There's been a major tone shift from Zelensky today:

https://twitter.com/ChristopherJM/status/1679153986157281280?s=20

https://twitter.com/markiank/status/1679122877730152449?s=20

[Punxsutawney Phil]

https://www.politico.eu/article/ukraine-show-gratitude-west-support-ben-wallace-nato/

"Ukraine must show ‘gratitude’ to the West to keep support, UK defense minister warns"



More making friends and influencing people in action, only this time from the UK.

Headline manipulation. The article itself evokes the opposite impression. If you really want to know about "making friends and influencing people", you could read the channel of the Deputy Chairman of the Security Council of the Russian Federation. Here are the last three posts, for example (machine translation):

https://t.me/medvedev_telegram/351

Sleepy senile Biden said that two years ago in Geneva he denied the President of Russia guarantees that Ukraine would not join NATO.  Like "I’m done, I didn’t cave in to the Russians!"

Then, however, he shamefully fled from Afghanistan.  Then, to hide the shame, he ruined the economy of Europe.  Subsequently, having delivered hundreds of tons of weapons to Ukraine, he unleashed an extremely dangerous protracted conflict with Russia, as a result of which the Kiev regime is destroying the remnants of its country.  Now, having exhausted all resources, he promises cluster charges and again beckons neo-Nazis in Kyiv with the NATO perspective, the realization of which means a third world war.

Why is he doing this?
The easiest way is to think that this is the course of any American leader and US deep government: to dominate and limit other countries.  Especially obstinate ones like ours.

You can also say that he is a sick old man who is in severe dementia.  Like he doesn't know what he's doing.  Trump and a large part of Americans are screaming about this.

Or maybe everything is different?  Maybe the dying old man, obsessed with unhealthy fantasies, simply decided to leave gracefully, provoking nuclear Armageddon and taking half of humanity with him to the next world ...

https://t.me/medvedev_telegram/352

If an attempt to attack the Smolensk (Desnogorsk) NPP with NATO missiles is confirmed, it is necessary to consider the scenario of a simultaneous Russian strike on the South Ukrainian NPP, Rovno NPP and Khmelnitsky NPP, as well as on nuclear facilities in Eastern Europe.  There is nothing to be ashamed of here.

https://t.me/medvedev_telegram/353

Preliminary results of the NATO summit.
 Just like we thought:

1. Action Plan for Ukraine's membership in the Alliance (MAP) - cancel.  Kind of take it faster.

 2. To call the "404 country" to NATO.  But they will accept - it is not known when and under what conditions.

 Quite possibly never.  And that's what realists in the Alliance are afraid to say out loud.

3. To increase military assistance to the Kyiv regime.  Everything that is possible: rockets, cluster charges, airplanes.
 The completely crazy West could not come up with anything else.  Predictability of the highest level, to the point of idiocy.  In fact, it's a dead end.  World War III is getting closer.

 What does all this mean for us?  Everything is obvious.

The special military operation will continue with the same goals.

 One of them is the refusal of the Kyiv Nazi group from membership in NATO, which we insisted on from the very beginning (which is impossible).

This means that this group will have to be eliminated (which is possible and necessary).

P.S. It was reported that Tokmak was shelled with cluster munitions.  So, it's time to uncover our arsenals of this inhumane weapon.

What is the point of having a headline and an article in conflict like that? Perhaps that's the real question.

[Storr]

Did he really expect to be invited after blaming NATO for causing the war? lol

https://twitter.com/michaeldweiss/status/1679152609784127488?s=20

[Oleg 🇰🇿🤝🇺🇦]

Headline manipulation. The article itself evokes the opposite impression. If you really want to know about "making friends and influencing people", you could read the channel of the Deputy Chairman of the Security Council of the Russian Federation. Here are the last three posts, for example (machine translation):

https://t.me/medvedev_telegram/351

Sleepy senile Biden said that two years ago in Geneva he denied the President of Russia guarantees that Ukraine would not join NATO.  Like "I’m done, I didn’t cave in to the Russians!"

Then, however, he shamefully fled from Afghanistan.  Then, to hide the shame, he ruined the economy of Europe.  Subsequently, having delivered hundreds of tons of weapons to Ukraine, he unleashed an extremely dangerous protracted conflict with Russia, as a result of which the Kiev regime is destroying the remnants of its country.  Now, having exhausted all resources, he promises cluster charges and again beckons neo-Nazis in Kyiv with the NATO perspective, the realization of which means a third world war.

Why is he doing this?
The easiest way is to think that this is the course of any American leader and US deep government: to dominate and limit other countries.  Especially obstinate ones like ours.

You can also say that he is a sick old man who is in severe dementia.  Like he doesn't know what he's doing.  Trump and a large part of Americans are screaming about this.

Or maybe everything is different?  Maybe the dying old man, obsessed with unhealthy fantasies, simply decided to leave gracefully, provoking nuclear Armageddon and taking half of humanity with him to the next world ...

https://t.me/medvedev_telegram/352

If an attempt to attack the Smolensk (Desnogorsk) NPP with NATO missiles is confirmed, it is necessary to consider the scenario of a simultaneous Russian strike on the South Ukrainian NPP, Rovno NPP and Khmelnitsky NPP, as well as on nuclear facilities in Eastern Europe.  There is nothing to be ashamed of here.

https://t.me/medvedev_telegram/353

Preliminary results of the NATO summit.
 Just like we thought:

1. Action Plan for Ukraine's membership in the Alliance (MAP) - cancel.  Kind of take it faster.

 2. To call the "404 country" to NATO.  But they will accept - it is not known when and under what conditions.

 Quite possibly never.  And that's what realists in the Alliance are afraid to say out loud.

3. To increase military assistance to the Kyiv regime.  Everything that is possible: rockets, cluster charges, airplanes.
 The completely crazy West could not come up with anything else.  Predictability of the highest level, to the point of idiocy.  In fact, it's a dead end.  World War III is getting closer.

 What does all this mean for us?  Everything is obvious.

The special military operation will continue with the same goals.

 One of them is the refusal of the Kyiv Nazi group from membership in NATO, which we insisted on from the very beginning (which is impossible).

This means that this group will have to be eliminated (which is possible and necessary).

P.S. It was reported that Tokmak was shelled with cluster munitions.  So, it's time to uncover our arsenals of this inhumane weapon.

What is the point of having a headline and an article in conflict like that? Perhaps that's the real question.

The usual shocking to attract attention to the publication, no? Zelensky always thanks the allies, for example, in January and April of this year. But for a person who is protected by another person from the attack of a rabid bear, it is not so important how many times it was said "thank you" with a bloodied mouth, as for a third person who, with the help of cunning manipulations, set this bear on both of them and is trying to manipulate also these people in order to quarrel between them.

[Red Velvet]

There's been a major tone shift from Zelensky today:

https://twitter.com/ChristopherJM/status/1679153986157281280?s=20
https://twitter.com/markiank/status/1679122877730152449?s=20

Looks like someone got reminded of their lower tier position in all this hehe

That Zelenskyy photo in NATO was hilarious.

To Ukraine’s credit, their leadership is not the most cringe thing about those news posted. UK still manages to top it by acting like that annoying student that acts like “a message boy” to other kids about what the teacher wants.

[Storr]

There's been a major tone shift from Zelensky today:

https://twitter.com/ChristopherJM/status/1679153986157281280?s=20
https://twitter.com/markiank/status/1679122877730152449?s=20

Looks like someone got reminded of their lower tier position in all this hehe

That Zelenskyy photo in NATO was hilarious.

To Ukraine’s credit, their leadership is not the most cringe thing about those news posted. UK still manages to top it by acting like that annoying student that acts like “a message boy” to other kids about what the teacher wants.

https://twitter.com/OliverBullough/status/1679120704841687043?s=20

[Storr]

https://twitter.com/michaeldweiss/status/1679182290738446336?s=20

[Red Velvet]

https://twitter.com/I_Katchanovski/status/1678962349233905664
The absolute worst mistake that a “non-western” or “peripheral western” (ex: Latin America; Eastern Europe) nation can do is start believing they’re western and acting like it in these foreign meetings as if they will be seen or treated as such.

Even countries like Poland or other Eastern European, who are part of NATO when Ukraine isn’t, are aware on some level that they aren’t western or western enough for the wills of EU or US no matter how much they cater to what they want or expect.

What strikes me about Zelenskyy is how even before the war he acted like he had all these powerful countries in his bag just because he antagonized Russia. Like that would make them instantly part of the same club and they would suddenly be the best of friends chatting, playing together and going to the movies.

Being useful just doesn’t mean having an unconditional friendship. It never will. In the end pf the day for these people Ukraine is still mostly only a way to weaken Russia, without a real strategic value that would really make them put their heads out of their comfort zone to protect - which I think it would be the case for Taiwan for the US.

[Stranger in a strange land]

https://twitter.com/I_Katchanovski/status/1678962349233905664
The absolute worst mistake that a “non-western” or “peripheral western” (ex: Latin America; Eastern Europe) nation can do is start believing they’re western and acting like it in these foreign meetings as if they will be seen or treated as such.

Even countries like Poland or other Eastern European, who are part of NATO when Ukraine isn’t, are aware on some level that they aren’t western or western enough for the wills of EU or US no matter how much they cater to what they want or expect.

What strikes me about Zelenskyy is how even before the war he acted like he had all these powerful countries in his bag just because he antagonized Russia. Like that would make them instantly part of the same club and they would suddenly be the best of friends chatting, playing together and going to the movies.

Being useful just doesn’t mean having an unconditional friendship. It never will. In the end pf the day for these people Ukraine is still mostly only a way to weaken Russia, without a real strategic value that would really make them put their heads out of their comfort zone to protect - which I think it would be the case for Taiwan for the US.

Why would Zelensky be in the 2nd photo? Those are the leaders of member states, which Ukraine isn't, and Ukraine obviously isn't going to be admitted while an active war is going on on its territory.

[jaichind]

https://www.bloomberg.com/news/articles/2023-07-12/nato-is-papering-over-the-cracks-after-zelenskiy-loses-his-cool

"NATO Is Papering Over the Cracks After Zelenskiy Loses His Cool"

The Ukrainian president had been angered earlier in the day by what he said was an “absurd” reluctance to give his country a clear timeline on membership. 
That outburst in turn riled the partners who have funneled billions of dollars of weaponry and aid into Ukraine’s defense against the Russian invasion — the US had been given no warning before Zelenskiy unleashed his attack on social media.  

It seems by the second day of the Summit Zelensky has cooled down.   It is clear what Zelensky wanted was for Ukraine to join NATO ASAP so he can get NATO troops into Ukraine ASAP.  And if he cannot have that then he needs something concrete to bring back to his domestic audience.  When he realized he was going to get neither I guess he had to blow off some steam.

[Red Velvet]

The problem is Zelenskyy believing he would have even a minimal chance of getting those stuff though. As if it were so easy and automatic.

I’m at a point where I am extremely confused on whether the guy has delusions of grandeur about their geopolitical standing or if they were really misled by others to believe they were entitled to something when reality is very different. The latter is so stupid error that I simply prefer thinking of the guy in the first way, as if he was just arrogant and delusional.

Maybe a mix of both? Ukraine has been delusional since before the war on the matter but after the war began and the West made this global mobilization propaganda for them while also sending tons of stuff, they probably got even more emboldened to have a wrong idea about the nature of the support they get and how much involved Western powers are regarding it.

[Punxsutawney Phil]

The problem is Zelenskyy believing he would have even a minimal chance of getting those stuff though. As if it were so easy and automatic.

I’m at a point where I am extremely confused on whether the guy has delusions of grandeur about their geopolitical standing or if they were really misled by others to believe they were entitled to something when reality is very different.

Maybe a mix of both? Ukraine has been delusional since before the war on the matter but after the war began and the West made this global mobilization propaganda for them while also sending tons of stuff, they probably got even more emboldened to have a wrong idea about the nature of the support they get and how much involved Western powers are regarding it.

For what it's worth, Ukraine is still small compared to Russia in everything but industrial capacity. (The Tsars and the Soviets did a lot to develop the region, reaping dividends the area is collecting to this day)
This means it will need either a) a mutually peaceable relationship with Russia, or b) the aid of the collective West. (Preferably both)

[Storr]

https://twitter.com/I_Katchanovski/status/1678962349233905664
The absolute worst mistake that a “non-western” or “peripheral western” (ex: Latin America; Eastern Europe) nation can do is start believing they’re western and acting like it in these foreign meetings as if they will be seen or treated as such.

Even countries like Poland or other Eastern European, who are part of NATO when Ukraine isn’t, are aware on some level that they aren’t western or western enough for the wills of EU or US no matter how much they cater to what they want or expect.

What strikes me about Zelenskyy is how even before the war he acted like he had all these powerful countries in his bag just because he antagonized Russia. Like that would make them instantly part of the same club and they would suddenly be the best of friends chatting, playing together and going to the movies.

Being useful just doesn’t mean having an unconditional friendship. It never will. In the end pf the day for these people Ukraine is still mostly only a way to weaken Russia, without a real strategic value that would really make them put their heads out of their comfort zone to protect - which I think it would be the case for Taiwan for the US.

The statement below is complete malarkey because if they weren't "western enough for the wills of EU or US" then why were they let into NATO and the EU at all? Eastern European countries like Poland wanted to join NATO so they'd have the security of having Articles 5, which would prevent their countries from (once again) being invaded by Russia. This is the same reason why Ukraine currently wants to join NATO.

"Even countries like Poland or other Eastern European, who are part of NATO when Ukraine isn’t, are aware on some level that they aren’t western or western enough for the wills of EU or US no matter how much they cater to what they want or expect."

The reason the "these people" won't let Ukraine join NATO right now is because that would immediately bring NATO directly into the conflict. This isn't some cynical plan to weaken Russia by sacrificing Ukraine, as this was a war of choice on the part of Russia. Ukraine is simply trying to survive and it's completely fair for its government to want NATO membership as soon as possible in order to guarantee the nation's survival.

It's just not realistic for a military alliance add a country currently at war with that alliance's main adversary. Do the American, British, French, Italian, Dutch, Canadian, etc. publics want to see their nation's soldiers fighting and dying in Ukraine? In the end, that's why Ukraine was only given a vague promise of NATO membership once undefined conditions allow.

[Storr]

https://twitter.com/I_Katchanovski/status/1678962349233905664
The absolute worst mistake that a “non-western” or “peripheral western” (ex: Latin America; Eastern Europe) nation can do is start believing they’re western and acting like it in these foreign meetings as if they will be seen or treated as such.

Even countries like Poland or other Eastern European, who are part of NATO when Ukraine isn’t, are aware on some level that they aren’t western or western enough for the wills of EU or US no matter how much they cater to what they want or expect.

What strikes me about Zelenskyy is how even before the war he acted like he had all these powerful countries in his bag just because he antagonized Russia. Like that would make them instantly part of the same club and they would suddenly be the best of friends chatting, playing together and going to the movies.

Being useful just doesn’t mean having an unconditional friendship. It never will. In the end pf the day for these people Ukraine is still mostly only a way to weaken Russia, without a real strategic value that would really make them put their heads out of their comfort zone to protect - which I think it would be the case for Taiwan for the US.

The statement below is complete malarkey because if they weren't "western enough for the wills of EU or US" then why were they let into NATO and the EU at all? Eastern European countries like Poland wanted to join NATO so they'd have the security of having Articles 5, which would prevent their countries from (once again) being invaded by Russia. This is the same reason why Ukraine currently wants to join NATO.

"Even countries like Poland or other Eastern European, who are part of NATO when Ukraine isn’t, are aware on some level that they aren’t western or western enough for the wills of EU or US no matter how much they cater to what they want or expect."

The reason the "these people" won't let Ukraine join NATO right now is because that would immediately bring NATO directly into the conflict. This isn't some cynical plan to weaken Russia by sacrificing Ukraine, as this was a war of choice on the part of Russia. Ukraine is simply trying to survive and it's completely fair for its government to want NATO membership as soon as possible in order to guarantee the nation's survival.

It's just not realistic for a military alliance add a country currently at war with that alliance's main adversary. Do the American, British, French, Italian, Dutch, Canadian, etc. publics want to see their nation's soldiers fighting and dying in Ukraine? In the end, that's why Ukraine was only given a vague promise of NATO membership once undefined conditions allow.

A tangent to this thought:

This conundrum of refusing Ukrainian NATO membership before the war in order to prevent conflict with Russia and now refusing Ukrainian NATO membership because there's a war going on with Russia is why I feel the West's biggest mistake was to not give Ukraine NATO membership after 2014. West Germany was given NATO membership in 1955 with disputed borders. Yes there was the issue of the "separatists" in the Donbass, but at that time it was still technically an internal Ukrainian matter. So it could have been left for Ukrainian authorities to deal with, without forcing the rest of NATO to get involved.

If Ukraine had been a NATO member in 2022, there's no doubt in my mind Putin would not have invaded. Vladimir Putin may be many things, but he's not stupid. He knew NATO wouldn't get directly involved if he invaded, and he was right. That would not have been the case if Ukraine was a member of NATO. There's a reason the "historically Russian lands" of Baltic states haven't been invaded by Russia, while the "historically Russian lands" of Ukraine have.

[jaichind]

A tangent to this thought:

This conundrum of refusing Ukrainian NATO membership before the war in order to prevent conflict with Russia and now refusing Ukrainian NATO membership because there's a war going on with Russia is why I feel the West's biggest mistake was to not give Ukraine NATO membership after 2014. West Germany was given NATO membership in 1955 with disputed borders. Yes there was the issue of the "separatists" in the Donbass, but at that time it was still technically an internal Ukrainian matter. So it could have been left for Ukrainian authorities to deal with, without forcing the rest of NATO to get involved.

If Ukraine had been a NATO member in 2022, there's no doubt in my mind Putin would not have invaded. Vladimir Putin may be many things, but he's not stupid. He knew NATO wouldn't get directly involved if he invaded, and he was right. That would not have been the case if Ukraine was a member of NATO. There's a reason the "historically Russian lands" of Baltic states haven't been invaded by Russia, while the "historically Russian lands" of Ukraine have.

But could not one flip it around?  If Ukraine and NATO state that there is zero chance that Ukraine will join NATO the chances of a Russian invasion decrease dramatically.

[Red Velvet]

The problem is Zelenskyy believing he would have even a minimal chance of getting those stuff though. As if it were so easy and automatic.

I’m at a point where I am extremely confused on whether the guy has delusions of grandeur about their geopolitical standing or if they were really misled by others to believe they were entitled to something when reality is very different.

Maybe a mix of both? Ukraine has been delusional since before the war on the matter but after the war began and the West made this global mobilization propaganda for them while also sending tons of stuff, they probably got even more emboldened to have a wrong idea about the nature of the support they get and how much involved Western powers are regarding it.

For what it's worth, Ukraine is still small compared to Russia in everything but industrial capacity. (The Tsars and the Soviets did a lot to develop the region, reaping dividends the area is collecting to this day)
This means it will need either a) a mutually peaceable relationship with Russia, or b) the aid of the collective West. (Preferably both)

Not having a peaceful relationship with Russia is stupid and suicidal when you’re neighbors to them though.

I mean, why not have both of the things you mention? It’s geopolitics 101 for countries that are geopolitically limited by sharing a border with a much more powerful neighbor than them.

Do people think Mexico does business with US because they enjoy being called rapists and murderers on front of the entire global stage? Or because they can exist while getting some minimal but decent amount of investment; high number of tourists; etc?

You either becomes friends with your neighbor if the relationship can be beneficial in some minimal level to you and if just cannot, then you just keep things cordial by being neutral. Not antagonizing them but playing some “both sides” sh**t where you get economic deals with 3rd parties simultaneously as you play nice with your neighbor on the front.

But noooo, they just had to want it all and really enter NATO and EU, while the government openly trashtalked Russia like they were able to sustain this position by themselves or as if they had the collective West on their pockets. Neutrality was always the best path for them.

You only play big words if you really have the means to stand up for it or others have already guaranteed that you have this option. Ukraine never had the NATO membership locked and yet you would think they always had it by the way they acted even before and during the war.

[Hindsight was 2020]

Just a reminder of the horrors Ukraine is facing 
https://twitter.com/michaeldweiss/status/1679144814691115009?s=12

[Storr]

The problem is Zelenskyy believing he would have even a minimal chance of getting those stuff though. As if it were so easy and automatic.

I’m at a point where I am extremely confused on whether the guy has delusions of grandeur about their geopolitical standing or if they were really misled by others to believe they were entitled to something when reality is very different.

Maybe a mix of both? Ukraine has been delusional since before the war on the matter but after the war began and the West made this global mobilization propaganda for them while also sending tons of stuff, they probably got even more emboldened to have a wrong idea about the nature of the support they get and how much involved Western powers are regarding it.

For what it's worth, Ukraine is still small compared to Russia in everything but industrial capacity. (The Tsars and the Soviets did a lot to develop the region, reaping dividends the area is collecting to this day)
This means it will need either a) a mutually peaceable relationship with Russia, or b) the aid of the collective West. (Preferably both)

Not having a peaceful relationship with Russia is stupid and suicidal when you’re neighbors to them though.

I mean, why not have both of the things you mention? It’s geopolitics 101 for countries that are geopolitically limited by sharing a border with a powerful neighbor.

Do people think Mexico does business with US because they enjoy being called rapists and murderers on front of the entire global stage? Or because they can exist while getting some minimal but decent amount of investment; high number of tourists; etc?

You either becomes friends with your neighbor if the relationship can being beneficial in some minimal level to you and if just cannot, then you just keep things cordial by being neutral. Not antagonizing them but playing some “both sides” sh**t where you get economic deals with 3rd parties simultaneously as you play nice with your neighbor on the front.

But noooo, they just had to want it all and really enter NATO and EU, while the government openly trashtalked Russia like they were able to sustain this position by themselves or as if they had the collective West on their pockets. Neutrality was always the best path for them.

You only play big words if you really have the means to stand up for it or others have already guaranteed that you have this option.

Russia invaded and annexed internationally recognized Ukrainian territory. What was Ukraine supposed to do, pretend none of that happened and pursue a good relationship with Russia?

[jaichind]

Russia invaded and annexed internationally recognized Ukrainian territory. What was Ukraine supposed to do, pretend none of that happened and pursue a good relationship with Russia?

Actually yes.  I would give the same advice to Mexico in 1848.

[Punxsutawney Phil]

Russia invaded and annexed internationally recognized Ukrainian territory. What was Ukraine supposed to do, pretend none of that happened and pursue a good relationship with Russia?

Actually yes.  I would give the same advice to Mexico in 1848.

Not at all inherently bad advice.