United Kingdom General Election: July 4, 2024

[icc]

I can't think of any obvious reason why that would change anyone's vote.

This is the main takeaway, though if we are to dive into the debate then on balance I'd say Sunak, despite being belligerent and consistently bulldozing the (female) moderator, narrowly got the better of Starmer. Both of them were pretty awful however - Starmer's failure to refute Sunak's, ahem, 'stretching' of the truth on tax rises, followed up by the zinger 'I would raise specific taxes' (coming to a FB ad near you) in particular was utter political malpractice - and the moderator was similarly abysmal.

Certainly the big loser of the debate was the audience.

[Mike88]

Just a question: Does the UK's NHS has partnerships with private hospitals?

[Devout Centrist]

This debate changed my mind: I believe the next government should ban ITV.

[Filuwaúrdjan]

This debate changed my mind: I believe the next government should ban ITV.

[Torrain]

Just a question: Does the UK's NHS has partnerships with private hospitals?

Yes. There’s a range of different approaches across different NHS boards. GPs can refer you to private hospitals, and many private hospitals provide NHS services.

https://www.nhs.uk/using-the-nhs/about-the-nhs/your-choices-in-the-nhs/

This was significantly expanded during the pandemic to try and boost capacity - but not without controversy.

https://www.bmj.com/content/380/bmj.p348

Private sector involvement is one of these things that is often touted as a way to ‘save’ the service, but remains massively controversial. The old cliche is that only Labour can deliver large-scale NHS reform because the Tories are inherently distrusted on the issue. Wes Streeting, who’ll almost be Health Secretary this time next month, has repeatedly mooted an increased role for the private sector in NHS provision.

[Filuwaúrdjan]

There might be a degree of confusion here, so in order to clear it up at once: there is no parallel private healthcare system in the United Kingdom. Private hospitals exist, but they largely perform routine procedures and minor and routine surgery: for anything more serious there is no option other than the NHS, unless one happens to be wealthy enough to go the London Clinic as Royalty do. The doctors themselves are usually NHS employees doing a bit of private work for extra cash: this was part of the bargain Aneurin Bevan struck with the British Medical Association to avoid a doctors strike, of which he said 'I stuffed their mouths with gold'.

[Mike88]

So, very similar, if not equal, to other countries. So, Starmer's answer was a bit nonsense. Anyway, I've watched the debate on YouTube, and it wasn't that impressive. Don't think that Stamer was that bad, he was much calmer and put together than Sunak, who, in return, was much more combative and fiery, but, that's understandable when your're 20 points behind in the polls.

There might be a degree of confusion here, so in order to clear it up at once: there is no parallel private healthcare system in the United Kingdom. Private hospitals exist, but they largely perform routine procedures and minor and routine surgery: for anything more serious there is no option other than the NHS, unless one happens to be wealthy enough to go the London Clinic as Royalty do. The doctors themselves are usually NHS employees doing a bit of private work for extra cash: this was part of the bargain Aneurin Bevan struck with the British Medical Association to avoid a doctors strike, of which he said 'I stuffed their mouths with gold'.

So, if you have a health emergency, let's say late in the evening, you only have a NHS emergency available? You cannot go to a private hospital and be treated?

[Filuwaúrdjan]

So, if you have a health emergency, let's say late in the evening, you only have a NHS emergency available? You cannot go to a private hospital and be treated?

If you tried to book into a private hospital under such circumstances, then they would only transfer you to the nearest A&E department (which would likely not be far).

[Mike88]

So, if you have a health emergency, let's say late in the evening, you only have a NHS emergency available? You cannot go to a private hospital and be treated?

If you tried to book into a private hospital under such circumstances, then they would only transfer you to the nearest A&E department (which would likely not be far).

Ah, right, then that's different from other EU countries.

[Almost Anyone But Biden Or Trump (ABBoT but not Greg Abbott)]

If you tried to book into a private hospital under such circumstances, then they would only transfer you to the nearest A&E department (which would likely not be far).

The way I at least interpreted the question was broader. I don't have a transcript with exact wording or anything, but:

https://uk.news.yahoo.com/keir-starmer-dismisses-nonsense-tax-213352201.htm

In another section, Sunak said he would use private health care if he had a loved-one on a long waiting list for surgery, while Starmer said he would not.

Asked the question, the Labour leader said: “No.

“I don’t use private health. I use the NHS. That’s where my wife works, in one of the big hospitals; as I said it runs through my DNA.”

It seems to me like that would include things like going to another country to get surgery which was not available in the UK either at all or in a timely manner, which in some cases could certainly be life saving. For example, maybe some novel specialized cancer treatment or an organ transplant or something.

Not saying that you would do that to save a loved one, if that was the only option and you had the means/ability to do so, seems a bit heartless and inhuman, similar to the Michael Dukakis debate flub in the US 1988 election about what if his daughter were murdered. That, at least, seems like a very different question from whether you support NHS privatization or partial privatization.

[Blair]

It’s peak Westminster bubble that it’s being written up as a win because the YouGov poll released at 10 showed Sunak winning, while the one released this morning showed Starmer winning.

[Torrain]

Treasury Permanent Secretary says the £2,000 per person figure didn’t come from the work of civil servants:
https://twitter.com/hzeffman/status/1798252445321343456

[Filuwaúrdjan]

Ah well nevertheless. Oops.

[Torrain]

Per Swinford, Tom Hunt is actively considering defection to Reform, after a selection row with Ric Holden - and several more are also seen as being on defection watch by CCHQ, including Marco Longhi.

[TheTide]

Per Swinford, Tom Hunt is actively considering defection to Reform, after a selection row with Ric Holden - and several more are also seen as being on defection watch by CCHQ, including Marco Longhi.

Vaguely admirable that he didn't move to Central Suffolk and North Ipswich. Far safer, obviously, and wouldn't be the worst chicken run taking place.

[MillennialModerate]

Starmer answer to the line about would you use private insurance to save someone you love was awful - comes off as cold and automated.

'Save' wasn't what was asked (and couldn't have been with the way healthcare works in this country), but this post mostly suggests a lack of familiarity with the Labour Party.

How so? I realize the deep personal connection between the NHS and Labour and that it was Atleys Labour government that created it etc… what am I missing? It still shows a robotic inhuman response  - just like the Dukakis “rape” question

[Conservatopia]

It was a fairly silly answer to a really stupid question. It doesn't matter in the slightest though and won't affect anything.

[YL]

Apparently the Tory membership in Basildon & Billericay has been presented with a “shortlist” of one: outgoing North West Durham MP and current party Chairman Ric Holden.

[CumbrianLefty]

It’s peak Westminster bubble that it’s being written up as a win because the YouGov poll released at 10 showed Sunak winning, while the one released this morning showed Starmer winning.

Two polls this morning had a clear Starmer win. At this point, it may be worth noting that YouGov's actual question was "Who performed best?" and *not* "Who won?". A subtle difference, but one that might count given how low expectations generally were for Sunak before the start. And most of the other questions they asked had Starmer clearly ahead (sometimes majorly so)

[TiltsAreUnderrated]

No Conservative MPs have announced they're standing down since the Michael Gove and Andrea Leadsom double whammy on Friday evening. Surely that's not the last of them?

Neil Hudson has failed three different selections for the safest of seats and apparently balked at contesting Tim Farron’s seat (notionally Conservative on boundary changes, but they have no hope this time).

The remaining parachutes are shrinking in number, and the holes in them grow by the day. Either he’ll grab one of these or step back for 2024.

Eleanor Laing stood down and he was selected for her (plum) seat, Epping Forest. CCHQ must love him!

[YL]

Dropped Labour candidate Faiza Shaheen is standing as an Independent in Chingford & Woodford Green.

I doubt she has enough of a following to make a big impact, but I can’t imagine IDS is too upset about this.

[Germany1994]

It’s peak Westminster bubble that it’s being written up as a win because the YouGov poll released at 10 showed Sunak winning, while the one released this morning showed Starmer winning.

Two polls this morning had a clear Starmer win. At this point, it may be worth noting that YouGov's actual question was "Who performed best?" and *not* "Who won?". A subtle difference, but one that might count given how low expectations generally were for Sunak before the start. And most of the other questions they asked had Starmer clearly ahead (sometimes majorly so)

Can you link them here??

[DL]

Polls today paint a different picture of who won the debate! https://x.com/JLPartnersPolls/status/1798258155391942656

[CumbrianLefty]

No Conservative MPs have announced they're standing down since the Michael Gove and Andrea Leadsom double whammy on Friday evening. Surely that's not the last of them?

Neil Hudson has failed three different selections for the safest of seats and apparently balked at contesting Tim Farron’s seat (notionally Conservative on boundary changes, but they have no hope this time).

The remaining parachutes are shrinking in number, and the holes in them grow by the day. Either he’ll grab one of these or step back for 2024.

Eleanor Laing stood down and he was selected for her (plum) seat, Epping Forest. CCHQ must love him!

So they get two expat Scots in a row.

[Torrain]

New YouGov Westminster VI poll (with the new MRP-style methodology) :

• Lab: 40%
• Con: 19%
• Reform UK: 17%
• Lib Dem: 10%
• Green: 7%
• SNP: 3%